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An Act to amend the Criminal Code (conditional sentence of imprisonment)

This bill is from the 39th Parliament, 1st session, which ended in October 2007.

Sponsor

Vic Toews  Conservative

Status

This bill has received Royal Assent and is now law.

Summary

This is from the published bill. The Library of Parliament has also written a full legislative summary of the bill.

This enactment amends section 742.1 of the Criminal Code to provide that a person convicted of a serious personal injury offence as defined in section 752 of that Act, a terrorism offence or a criminal organization offence prosecuted by way of indictment for which the maximum term of imprisonment is ten years or more is not eligible for a conditional sentence.

Similar bills

C-70 (38th Parliament, 1st session) An Act to amend the Criminal Code (conditional sentence of imprisonment)

Elsewhere

All sorts of information on this bill is available at LEGISinfo, an excellent resource from Parliament. You can also read the full text of the bill.

Bill numbers are reused for different bills each new session. Perhaps you were looking for one of these other C-9s:

C-9 (2021) Law An Act to amend the Judges Act
C-9 (2020) Law An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (Canada Emergency Rent Subsidy and Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy)
C-9 (2020) An Act to amend the Chemical Weapons Convention Implementation Act
C-9 (2016) Law Appropriation Act No. 1, 2016-17

Votes

Nov. 1, 2006 Failed That Bill C-9, in Clause 1, be amended (a) by replacing lines 6 to 13 on page 1 with the following: “742.1 (1) If a person is convicted of an offence and the court imposes a sentence” (b) by adding after line 25 on page 1 the following: “(2) Despite subsection (1), the court shall not order that an offender serve the sentence in the community if the offender is convicted of any of the following offences: ( a) an offence punishable by a minimum term of imprisonment; ( b) an offence prosecuted by way of indictment for which the maximum term of imprisonment is fourteen years or more; and( c) any of the following offences, if prosecuted by way of indictment and punishable by a maximum term of imprisonment of ten years:(i) a terrorism offence, (ii) a criminal organization offence, (iii) an offence under any of the following provisions: (A) section 83.231 (hoax — terrorist activity), (B) subsection 88(1) (possession of weapon for dangerous purpose), (C) section 144 (prison breach), (D) section 160 (bestiality, compelling, in presence of or by child), (E) subsection 212(1) (procuring), (F) section 221 (causing bodily harm by criminal negligence), (G) subsection 249(3) (dangerous operation causing bodily harm), (H) subsection 252(1.2) (offence involving bodily harm), (I) subsection 255(2) (impaired driving causing bodily harm), (J) section 264 (criminal harassment), (K) section 267 (assault with a weapon or causing bodily harm), (L) section 271 (sexual assault), (M) section 279 (kidnapping, forcible confinement), (N) section 279.02 (trafficking in persons — material benefit), (O) section 281 (abduction of person under 14), (P) section 282 (abduction in contravention of custody order), (Q) section 283 (abduction), (R) paragraph 334( a) (theft),(S) subsections 342(1) and (3) (theft, forgery of credit card, unauthorized use of credit card data), (T) paragraph 348(1)( e) (breaking and entering with intent, committing offence or breaking out),(U) section 349 (being unlawfully in dwelling-house), (V) section 354 (possession of property obtained by crime), (W) section 382 (fraudulent manipulation of stock exchange transactions), (X) subsection 382.1(1) (prohibited insider trading), (Y) section 396 (offences in relation to mines), (Z) section 400 (false prospectus), (Z.1) section 403 (personation with intent), (Z.2) section 424.1 (threat against United Nations or associated personnel), (Z.3) section 435 (arson for fraudulent purpose), and (Z.4) section 465 (conspiracy), (iv) an offence under any of the following provisions of the Criminal Code, chapter C-34 of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1970, as they read immediately before January 4, 1983: (A) section 145 (attempt to commit rape), and (B) section 156 (indecent assault on male), (v) an offence under any of the following provisions of the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act:(A) section 5 (trafficking), (B) section 6 (importing and exporting), and (C) section 7 (production), (vi) an offence under any of the following provisions of the Food and Drugs Act, as they read immediately before the coming into force of section 64 of the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act:(A) section 39 (trafficking in controlled drugs), (B) section 44.2 (possession of property obtained by trafficking in controlled drugs), (C) section 44.3 (laundering proceeds of trafficking in controlled drugs), (D) section 48 (trafficking in restricted drugs), (E) section 50.2 (possession of property obtained by trafficking in restricted drugs), and (F) section 50.3 (laundering proceeds of trafficking in restricted drugs), and (vii) an offence under any of the following provisions of the Narcotic Control Act, as they read immediately before the coming into force of section 64 of the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act:(A) section 19.1 (possession of property obtained by certain offences), and (B) section 19.2 (laundering proceeds of certain offences).”
June 6, 2006 Passed That the Bill be now read a second time and referred to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

May 29th, 2006 / 6:10 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member does make a good point. Yes, 35 years ago in 1970 it was quite different. The data actually shows that the crime rate was slightly less than it is now. Between then and now, crime went up and now it is headed down again.

The member asked if I had more data and statistics. These are not my statistics. These are our statistics. They are there for everyone to access, look at and study.

He also raised another good point. He asked why people now are seemingly more afraid than they were 5, 10 or 20 years ago. I do not have all the answers to that but I do know we watch a lot more television than we used to.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

May 29th, 2006 / 6:10 p.m.

An hon. member

Oh, come on.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

May 29th, 2006 / 6:10 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Yes, we watch television, we listen to the media and we read magazines. The media is filled with crime stories and victimization. Some of the stories are not even real but we watch them like they are. Where do most of those stories come from? They come from a location that has a homicide rate of 5.90 compared to 1.95. No wonder people are afraid. The drama, the statistics and the life experiences that they are watching come from a place where the crime rate is triple that of Canada's crime rate.

The real TV, the murder and crime shows, all from the United States, might have something to do with it. It is great entertainment but that might have something to do with it. I do not know. I do not have enough wisdom to know all of that but I think that is a factor.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

May 29th, 2006 / 6:10 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague gave a very interesting and very detailed statistical picture, and I congratulate him.

He raised a basic question: the link between poverty and crime.

This government is preparing to spend money on measures that will change how Canada deals with crime. These measures will cost more because there will be more people in prison and therefore there will be more prisons. I feel that this money could be put to better use in fighting poverty.

I therefore ask my colleague from Scarborough—Rouge River whether, with his statistics or data, he could help us understand how poverty could be reduced, whether through social housing or initiatives that get people off the streets or programs that give youth gangs the chance to play sports.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

May 29th, 2006 / 6:10 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member makes a wonderful point that our crime is usually connected to a cause of crime. I would say that the justice committee went down this road as well with the crime prevention report in 1993. It was called the Horner report. It was chaired by a member of the Conservative Party at the time.

That report linked growing up in poverty, lack of success at school, learning disabilities in school, and other related items to the source of crime. If we can continue to make progress, as I said earlier, in addressing poverty, particularly children in poverty and we have made huge progress but there is so much more to do, the more progress we make in dealing with poverty, the more progress we make in dealing with the causes of crime. If we remove the causes of crime, we will reduce the crime.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

May 29th, 2006 / 6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

Mr. Speaker, we heard a lot today about crime and punishment. I would like to challenge some of those statistics and some of the statements.

I grew up poor and I would bet that there are a lot of people here who grew up poor, too. All my friends grew up poor. Quite frankly, we did not break the law, but we did get into a lot of trouble at home.

I want to challenge some of these things that members are talking about and then I will ask the member a question. Another thing that I hear repeatedly is prison being referred to as repression. I wonder where we are going with all this.

Crime is going down. I have heard that so much. I have two sons who are police officers. We just listened to the hon. member on the other side. My sons tell me crime is not going down but the reporting of it is going down. The police and public are reporting less. The police are frustrated and I would suggest that the public is getting frustrated, as well. We have a system that just does not seem to be working.

Whether or not we agree on these issues, and we could debate them for a long time, but the underlying issue is, should the time be indicative of the crime? Is this repression we are talking about or should there be punishment for wrongdoers, and should it reflect what they have done?

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May 29th, 2006 / 6:15 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Speaker, the simple answer is yes. The sentence for a crime should reflect the seriousness of it, whether or not the offender is a first time offender, the denunciation factor which I had referred to earlier. Clearly, there are actually seven or eight different criteria set out in the legislation for sentencing. Right up there near the top is the denunciation factor. In other words the state and the people are saying that if individuals do that which is so serious, we will take away their liberty and they will be incarcerated for a period of time.

Running along with the denunciation are the other factors which I have referred to, which are in the legislation. That is there for everyone to read also. We are doing reasonably well at it.

I know the member would like to have more statistics that would enable him and police communities, who are working across the country to protect us, to show the sources of what they regard as the persistent crime that irritates them so much and I hope they can find that.

The connections between the propensity to commit a crime and the causes all relate to the poverty issue raised by the hon. member, the lack of success in school, and what happens to a young person growing up. Just because one is poor does not mean one is a thug or a crook. Of course it does not.

Half of Canada was poor during the depression, but the country did not grow up with thugs and crooks. It is the disadvantaged among us who are more likely be drawn into crime. It is that group that our social spending should be aimed at. That is what we should keep in mind as we discuss public policy in sentencing.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

May 29th, 2006 / 6:15 p.m.

Simcoe—Grey Ontario

Conservative

Helena Guergis ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Trade

Mr. Speaker, it is a privilege for me to speak today to Bill C-9, an act to amend the Criminal Code.

The government's platform commitment to take an active role in the proper administration of justice is clear. This bill is an equally clear legislative example of that commitment in the area of sentencing reform.

Bill C-9 would serve communities across Canada by eliminating the availability of conditional sentences for serious crimes, such as sexual offences, weapons offences, impaired driving causing bodily harm or death, and major drug offences.

As our platform indicates, serious crimes involving violence and drugs demand appropriately measured penalties for offenders. As recent events illustrate, this demand is present in our communities and it is immediate.

After 13 years of Liberal rule, we know how crime has become worse. The statistics bear this out, and I am sure the hon. member for Scarborough will enjoy my speech this evening.

According to Statistics Canada, the rate of drug incidents increased 11% in 2004. Cannabis possession incidents increased 15% and cannabis cultivation cases, the marijuana grow op operations, have doubled from 3,400 incidents in 1994 to over 8,000 of them in 2004. In fact, the largest grow op in the country was in the riding beside mine, in the city of Barrie, in the old Molson plant. We had cocaine incidents increase by almost 70% in 2004, to almost 17,000; heroin-related incidents were up 19%, to almost 800; and drug importation offences were up 45%, to almost 1,000. These are staggering increases.

Drugs and drug-related violence pose a threat to our communities, our children and our law enforcement officers. I get tired of hearing people criticize government for wanting to punish drug users, growers and dealers. Drugs and the crimes that go along with them cost our economy huge dollars. Bill C-9 conversely sets out to curb them.

When conditional sentences are handed down for serious offences involving drugs, the purpose of sentencing is confused. The purpose of sentencing should be to show respect for the law, to prevent further crime, and to maintain a more just, safe and peaceful society. Perhaps I can take a few moments to list some examples.

A few weeks ago here in Ottawa, we had a home invasion by youths. They brutally beat a man in his nineties because they thought he had some money. This gentleman lived in an average family neighbourhood. Why should he have been worried that someone would break into his home and beat him up?

These are the types of crimes that are very frustrating to police. They feel as though their hands are tied. I know because I have gone on patrol with the police in my riding of Simcoe—Grey. They say the gangs from Toronto come up on the weekends and it is largely drug-related. The reason they feel their hands are tied is because of how they have to treat young offenders. If they charge someone without first offering counselling, the judge will throw the case out. I do not think many Canadians would agree that counselling is proportional punishment for savagely beating a helpless man, but I will come back to that a bit later.

A couple of nights ago, one of our staffers parked his car just around the corner from his house. At 7:30 in the evening, on Sussex, it was broken into. Significant damage was done to the vehicle, not to mention that property was stolen. Ask any police officer, why do people break into homes demanding cash or break into cars to steal a stereo or valuables? Ask police officers why it happened and they will tell us the same thing: drugs.

Late last month in my riding, in the town of Collingwood, a man broke into a home and sexually assaulted a woman. When asked about it by a local reporter, the investigating officer said that usually when people break into homes, it is drug and theft-related and sexual assaults are part of the crime.

I hear the frustration of Simcoe--Grey police officers all the time. They arrest someone on a drug charge knowing full well that in all likelihood that person will be back out on the street within hours. For young offenders, they just do not even bother.

On Wednesday, May 3, a 16-year-old male was stabbed in my riding. The 17-year-old Alliston male who did it was charged by police with aggravated assault, possession of a dangerous weapon, assault with a weapon, and failure to comply with a probation order. Perhaps he had not had enough counselling.

I am also reminded of the beautiful young lady who was gunned down in Toronto while shopping on Boxing Day. We later learned that one of those charged had just previously been charged on a separate offence. We see this all too often.

Our system has to be changed so criminals cannot treat our justice system like a revolving door. I heard this over and over during the election campaign. Fortunately, my party had a plan and I was able to share that with my constituents.

Last year my colleague from Whitby—Oshawa, the Minister of Finance, led a Conservative Party task force on safe streets and healthy communities. During this time I toured Simcoe—Grey with various local police detachments. The growing anxiety that people have about crime is not, I believe, unfounded. For example, in 2004 a Nottawasaga OPP detachment reported 238 break and enters. The Collingwood detachment reported 2,206 criminal offences. The Wasaga Beach OPP reported 80 drug regulated charges with over $3 million in drugs removed from the streets in Wasaga Beach.

We know that even so-called petty crime is crime that costs all of us, but I am not sure there is anything such as petty crime. Crime costs all of us and for too long. The previous government has been way too easy on crime and the criminals who commit it. Bill C-9 is going to help correct this.

That brings us to sentencing and what is fair. A further objective of the Criminal Code is that of proportionality. In all cases the aim is to find a sentence that is proportionate to the gravity of the offence and the degree of responsibility of the offender. It is the position of this government that the objective of proportionality is put in jeopardy when conditional sentences are granted to serious drug offenders.

Illegal narcotics, by virtue of their effects on citizens and their accompanying violence, are a phenomenon of which our government must be concerned. We made a platform commitment to take it seriously. People have been affected by drug crime. We promised to take positive action to do something about it, but there is no sense in making such a promise unless we are prepared to move immediately. These changes cannot happen soon enough. It is with this commitment in mind that we stress the necessity of the passage of Bill C-9.

In proposing this bill, we also keep in mind the matter of Regina v. Kerr. In this case the offender, Kerr, was convicted of three counts of trafficking in heroin and one count of improperly storing a firearm. Heroin is a schedule I narcotic, the trafficking of which is an indictable offence punishable by life in prison under section 5 of the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. Though the trial judge found a conditional sentence inappropriate, the Court of Appeal overturned the sentence of imprisonment and granted Kerr a conditional sentence of 18 months.

I cannot explain that one to the hard-working taxpayer in my riding of Simcoe—Grey who respects the law, provides for his family and plays by the rules. Someone is charged with three counts of trafficking in heroin and gets a conditional sentence.

What the Court of Appeal deemed an overemphasis on general deterrence, the trial judge was found to have appeared to treat drug trafficking as creating a presumption against conditional sentences. The conditional sentence of Kerr was born of a culture of leniency owing to a lack of necessary legislative safeguards. This bill gives legislative teeth to impose more serious sentences for serious crimes.

In the periodic absence of proportionality at common law, we have found a need to legislate proportionality back into sentencing. This, we assert, requires some bounds by which conditional sentences may not be imposed. In the world of drug trafficking, sometimes people need to go to jail.

Among the mitigating factors cited by the Court of Appeal was the fact that Mr. Kerr was dealing in small amounts of heroin and that he was an addict. What the trial judge pointed out, however, was that heroin had not been sold to an undercover officer. It may have been sold to another addict. The judge correctly pointed out that the actions of the offender, his own addiction aside, had the potential to either ruin or put an end to another life.

The argument made by the trial judge bears some reflection. On one hand, many of the cases involving trafficking of narcotics examined by the Department of Justice contain an accused with sympathetic unfortunate circumstances. Often these circumstances are noted as mitigating factors in favour of a conditional sentence, but at what cost? What our platform commitment and indeed what this bill requests is that the circumstances of the trafficker be weighed against that of the addict being sold the narcotics. Lives are ruined or terminated at the hands of illegal drugs every day in this country.

Our government is committed to punishing the purveyors of these drugs by limiting conditional sentences for these drug offenders.

Two points bear noting. The first is that this reform does not propose to modify or change the fundamental purpose and principles of sentencing contained in the Criminal Code. Instead it seeks to embrace them. With respect to serious matters, it implicitly requires the courts to focus principally but not exclusively on the objectives of denunciation, incapacitation and general deterrence. Second, we do not propose to ban conditional sentences altogether.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

May 29th, 2006 / 6:25 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker Bill Blaikie

Order. The time provided for government orders has expired.

The House resumed from May 29 consideration of the motion that Bill C-9, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (conditional sentence of imprisonment) be read the second time and referred to a committee.

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May 31st, 2006 / 3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in connection with Bill C-9, introduced by the Minister of Justice in April as part of the government's so-called reform of criminal justice. Let me speak frankly; this bill has a very clearly avowed objective, which is to shift our justice system to the right.

What is even more worrying—and this will definitely not be the last time I have occasion to say so in this House—is that the government has an ideological approach to justice that can in no way be supported by statistics, rigour or documented analysis.

Furthermore, when the Minister of Justice, a former attorney general in his province, Manitoba, appeared before our committee to defend his interim supply, I had an opportunity to ask him a few questions about conditional sentences and sentencing in general. I have to say I did not get my intellectual fill. In fact, I was left hungry for answers.

What is it about? Bill C-9 wants to limit the use of conditional sentences. It would mean that all crimes—the crimes, not the people being sentenced—punishable by 10 years in prison... Since I have the privilege of addressing this House for 20 minutes—and this will go by very quickly as the member for Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher knows—I will have a chance to say more about the details of offences punishable by more than 10 years.

Let us begin with some background. I do not wish to revive bad memories for the House, but it was the former Minister of Justice, Allan Rock, today a diplomat and spokesperson for Canada at the United Nations, who introduced a bill in 1996. At that time, I had been in this House for three years, since I was elected in 1993.

Actually, in 1996, the government and various organizations responsible for law enforcement realized that Canada was one of the countries that had most recourse to imprisonment. Of course, the U.S. was also among these countries. We know that the prison population in the U.S. is about 700 per 100,000 inhabitants. Canada’s prison population at that time was about 133 or 134, and then dropped to 123 or 122, depending on the year. As we know, the U.S. does not hesitate to resort to imprisonment.

In 1996 therefore, Allan Rock, Minister of Justice and Solicitor General, tabled a bill to allow an alternative to imprisonment. It provided for the possibility of conditional sentences in certain circumstances: for crimes punishable by less than two years in prison, for individuals who did not pose any danger to society, and in cases in which there was no minimum sentence.

I repeat this because I have often heard analysts and journalists say that conditional sentences were always totally discretionary. That is not true. Our fellow citizens and parliamentary colleagues must know that when a judge wants to impose a sentence to be served in the community, certain criteria must be met. I remind the House because it is important to be aware of them: the offender must be guilty of an offence for which there is no minimum sentence, it is a crime punishable by less than two years in prison, and of course, there cannot be any threat to public safety. It is a question of secure communities. The judge must be convinced that accused who serve their sentences in the community do not pose any danger.

Finally—and this is important—according to section 718 of the Criminal Code, the judge must be convinced that a conditional sentence is consistent with the principle that sentences must be proportionate.

I say again and hope I do not have to repeat it: everything pertaining to sentencing is related to section 718 of the Criminal Code. There is still the proportionality principle. Obviously, if there is a petty thief and a first-degree murderer, it is expected that they will be sentenced accordingly. This is the very basis of our criminal justice system.

Conditional sentences of imprisonment are not discretionary. They were first proposed by the justice minister at the time, Mr. Allan Rock. They appeared at a time when too many people were being jailed. According to the statistics for 1996 and previous years, 50% of these people were imprisoned because they did not pay their fines. The social question that arises is: how much does it cost society to send someone to jail? I have a few statistics here that I will discuss a little later, although I will not keep members waiting long because I know how interested everyone is in these matters.

In 2002-03, what was the average annual cost of incarcerating an inmate in a provincial institution? We must remember that a sentence of two years or less is served in a provincial institution, while a sentence of two years or more is served in a federal institution. What was the average annual cost to incarcerate an inmate in a provincial institution? Do my colleagues have an idea?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

May 31st, 2006 / 4 p.m.

An hon. member

$75,000.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

May 31st, 2006 / 4 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

The hon. member for Trois-Rivières says $75,000. She is not very far off. The cost is $51,450.

Conversely, what is the cost to society when an offender or accused person is on mandatory supervision in the community? That costs the government $1,792.

In debating these matters, it is important to keep safety imperatives in mind. No one wants people released into our communities who might pose a threat. There is a consensus on this. However, we realize that there is a very big difference here.

In 1996, the following question was asked: how can we adopt and implement custodial alternatives which help relieve the congestion in our prisons while curtailing the offender's freedom? Canada was one of the western countries that made the most use of incarceration, particularly for unpaid fines.

Still, one can acknowledge that there was a degree of defensible rationality to this alternative to imprisonment. I repeat—it is not easy to be constantly repeating the same thing, but it is necessary for educational purposes—that conditional sentences of imprisonment apply to terms of under two years.

The problem with the minister’s bill, which in any case is a very bad bill, is that the minister is still under the illusion that this bill is going to be passed in committee in speedy and expeditious fashion. I must regretfully inform you that, in committee, all the necessary questions will be asked and all the necessary witnesses will be called. There will be no question of acting in haste, which would be alien to our duty of thorough investigation and analysis, a duty which the Bloc has never shirked.

The bill is being proposed by the Minister of Justice, a man with an ideological bent and a friend whom I respect because he is motivated to serve. However, we shall not let the Minister of Justice don the garb and shoes of George W. Bush, as if there were no difference between Canadian society, Quebec society and the United States.

This idea that the principle of conditional sentencing has to be restricted was imported from the United States. The minister seems to want to follow the same line as the Americans, and he thinks that what is good for them is good for Canadians or for Quebeckers. I think he is wrong.

Let us not get off topic and get away from what the bill proposes. Clearly, just because an offence carries a 10-year prison term under the Criminal Code, that does not mean that the sentencing judge—or the jury in the case of a jury trial—will sentence the offender to 10 years. This is obvious. But the minister's bill will mean that a conditional sentence cannot be imposed for any Criminal Code offence that carries a 10-year prison term.

Clearly, this does not pose a problem for the worst crimes, the most horrible or heinous offences. I am the last person who would be soft on someone who committed criminal negligence causing bodily harm. We understand that that is an act that carries a very serious consequence, although we believe in the principle of rehabilitation, of course.

What does pose a problem is that, without making any distinction, the minister took or had his officials take the list of offences punishable by more than 10 years in prison and, in every single case, without any sort of qualification, said that there would be no more conditional sentences. I have some examples. Theft of $5,000 is deplorable, of course. People should not steal from their neighbours. Nonetheless, we cannot say that someone who has committed theft is, by definition, a threat to people's safety and that a conditional sentence is never warranted.

We understand that cattle rustling is problematic too, especially for ranchers, whose livelihood is affected. But can we equate this with an offence causing bodily harm or this type of crime? I do not think so. We could also talk about unauthorized computer use, mail theft or things like that.

What bothers me about this bill is its lack of nuance. This is probably its most dreadful flaw, and it is consistent with the government's ideology. It is as if the government did not trust the judiciary, those elevated to the rank of judge. The golden rule in administering justice should always be to individualize the sentence. Who better than the judges, or juries in trials by jury, can appreciate the evidence and sequence of events and determine what took place?

Are studies available? In the amicable tone I am known for, when the minister was in front of me at the Standing Committee on Justice, I asked him whether his department had any studies suggesting that judges were not handing down appropriate sentences or that they abused conditional sentencing. I asked where this attitude of suspicion toward the judiciary came from. I must say that the minister was not particularly eloquent; in fact, he did very poorly. I mean no disrespect, but he was incredibly boring. All in all, he said nothing. I cannot understand that a bill as essential to the administration of justice as this one has been put forward without some well-documented and scientifically sound studies to support it.

Should it be demonstrated to us when the bill is considered—and I am sure that the hon. member for Châteauguay—Saint-Constant will work with me with a similar mindset, because we in the Bloc are not dogmatic—that the use of conditional sentences has become excessively widespread, we will be prepared to reconsider. This does not appear to be the case, however.

In fact, when I met with senior public servants, I was rather surprised to hear some of the things they had to say. As for as sentencing goes, conditional sentences—where time is served in the community—come with conditions, as their name suggests.

Quite often one of the conditions is to be at home. This was established by the Supreme Court.

This is punishment and loss of liberty we are talking about.

Again, it seems easy to understand why this is not an option for the most heinous crimes. Nonetheless, it is this generalization of the 10-year rule that scares us.

In the administration of justice, the use of conditional sentencing is quite limited. During the years being considered, it seems that 5% to 10% of the people who ended up in court had to serve their sentence in the community.

I will give you some statistics that I got from the deputy ministers when I spoke with them at the briefing session we attended when the bill was tabled. The deputy ministers said, “The most recent statistics estimate that roughly a third of the 15,493 conditional sentences in 2003-04 could not have been handed down could not have been handed down if there were 10-year maximum terms of imprisonment”.

I understand that more recent data was not available.

We see that it is limited, but the bill is still quite worrisome, especially since Quebec's public safety minister, Mr. Dupuis, member for Saint-Laurent and deputy premier of Quebec was worried about the bill. If we do not allow the use of conditional sentences for people who are sentenced to at least two years, where will they end up? They will end up in Quebec's penitentiaries and prisons.

Has anyone asked the minister about this? Does his department have enough money to transfer to the provinces to fulfill this new obligation? Of course not.

We are quite worried. Allow me to say they will be long in getting this bill. We will call in witnesses, we will ask questions and we will do a thorough job of it because there is a limit to accepting ideological debates. We all have ideologies in this House, but when ideologies supersede responsibility and bills are tabled that are not backed by studies, we have to wonder.

In short, I will have the opportunity to talk about Bill C-10 when it arrives. I spent my summer reading up on sentencing. I would like to thank my leader for making me responsible for justice issues. I have read the literature on sentencing; there are no Canadian studies showing a correlation between sentencing and deterrence.

We know quite well that the sentence is not as great a deterrent as the fear of being caught.

The member for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin is an individual whom I consult on a regular basis as a former justice minister. I have discussed this matter with him and he has confirmed my convictions: we were of like minds on this issue. It is always reassuring to know that I share the beliefs of the member for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin in matters of justice.

In the minute remaining, I would like to conclude with the following four statements: this is a bad bill; it is a bill that is not well thought out; the minister cannot don the garb and shoes of George W. Bush without being accountable to this House for the consequences of Bill C-9; the Government of Quebec is not in agreement with this bill nor are those who believe in social rehabilitation.

I invite all colleagues in this House to reject this bill. I believe that we must continue to advocate, when warranted, for placing our trust in the judiciary, in the judges who are in the best position to decide the sentence. Nothing would make me happier than to have this bill defeated.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

May 31st, 2006 / 4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Mr. Speaker, first, I tip my hat to the members from Quebec for the Memorial Cup win by the Quebec Remparts. I would point out, however, that their goalie comes from New Brunswick.

I thank the members for their comments. I believe that the government has another goal in mind in introducing this bill. It is not motivated by justice, as the member said. I believe that there is a political goal. The John Howard Society—which is not an admiration society for the Prime Minister of Australia, but another society by the same name—has denounced this bill. In the press, it said that a political party like the Conservative Party was pursuing a political goal by giving the public the impression that there has been an increase in crime. And that is not the case.

I would like to know whether the member believes that this may be the government’s motive.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

May 31st, 2006 / 4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my colleague, the member for Québec, and all members in this House, I am pleased to accept the good wishes of our colleague for the extraordinary win by the Remparts. We know that it was not easy. In the circumstances, one might have hoped that this would be contagious, and would be caught by the Montreal Canadiens. But that is all in the past now.

The member is correct. There is something extremely wrong—is that parliamentary language? I am of course using it without implying any malice. But there is indeed something very wrong with this bill, because it is guided by ideology. It is not based on meaningful and conclusive data.

That is why it is important that we be able to deal with it in more detail in committee. The member talked about the John Howard Society, and I know that there are other groups that want to appear before the committee. It is very important that we provide a forum for these people to speak. Once again, I would call attention to this idea that the criminal justice system must be modeled on what is done in the United States, without giving it any further thought, and without understanding what kind of society American society is and what impact that has on incarceration rates.

Our colleague is well advised to share our concern. I know that we will be able to work together on this matter in committee.