Evidence of meeting #5 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-3.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Lena Metlege Diab  Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship
Scott  Assistant Deputy Minister, Settlement and Citizens, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Schneidereit  Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Hoang  Director General, Citizenship Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Bonner  Senior Fellow, Aristotle Foundation for Public Policy, As an Individual
Chapman  M.S.C., Lost Canadians
Jacques  Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Perrault  Director, Economic Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

Welcome back, everyone.

We are now in the second hour of our meeting today.

We have a panel of three witnesses.

As a reminder to our witnesses, kindly wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. All comments should be addressed through the chair.

In terms of our witnesses for the second panel, we have, as an individual, Michael Bonner, senior fellow, Aristotle Foundation for Public Policy. We have Mr. Don Chapman, who has written a book on lost Canadians. From the Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, we have three guests: Mr. Jacques, interim Parliamentary Budget Officer; Mr. Elmarzougui, senior analyst; and Louis Perrault, director, economic analysis.

Welcome to you all.

Up to five minutes will be given for opening remarks, after which we will proceed with rounds of questions.

Mr. Bonner, we have you up first for five minutes.

Michael Bonner Senior Fellow, Aristotle Foundation for Public Policy, As an Individual

Honourable members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today.

Thank you, Madam Chair and honourable members of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

It is an honour to be here before you today to discuss our national policy on citizenship.

I very much appreciate your time and your commitment to shaping immigration policy in Canada, and I look forward to contributing to this important discussion.

I am a former immigration policy adviser, a government relations professional, a historian and a senior fellow at the Aristotle Foundation for Public Policy.

Earlier this year, the Aristotle Foundation published a study of mine on Canadian immigration policy. It is called “Repairing the fray: Improving immigration and citizenship policy in Canada”. The purpose of that study was twofold. It explains why a long-standing consensus in favour of immigration has broken down over the past 10 years and offers some recommendations for improving immigration and citizenship policy and thereby restoring confidence in our immigration system.

One of my main criticisms of recent policy was that Canadian citizenship was not valued highly enough. I made the following comment: “We have the right and the obligation to raise the value of Canadian citizenship, and to demand more of our citizens. Above all...efforts at integration should proceed not from a dislike of other places, but from a love for Canada.”

Canadians take pride in who we are. Over four centuries, settlers and immigrants have contributed to the richness of our country based on a proud history and a distinctive identity. Canada is a constitutional monarchy, a parliamentary democracy, a federal state. We are the only constitutional monarchy in North America. We inherited the oldest continuous constitutional tradition in the world. Canadians are united by a shared commitment to the rule of law and the institutions of parliamentary government.

We have much to be proud of, and we have welcomed many generations of newcomers eager to assist in the building of our great country. It was, accordingly, a shameful error to describe Canada as a “postnational state” having “no mainstream” and lacking a “core identity”. It was strange to hear this from a Prime Minister, and even stranger, as it seemed to me, to refashion citizenship policy to reflect this supposed void in the heart of our country.

The theory that we are a non-nation without cultural norms is absurd, and Canadians rightly rejected it. An easily foreseeable consequence was the breakdown of trust in our immigration system and a rising demand that Canadian culture and institutions be shown greater respect.

This has been born out in recent polling. Nearly 60% of Canadians of all backgrounds now claim that newcomers do not share Canadian values and fail to integrate themselves within Canadian society, while 51% expect government institutions to do more to integrate newcomers and 55% believe that immigrants must adopt broad mainstream values and traditions. However we may feel about that, it seems that Canadians have no doubt that there is indeed something to belong to here, and that citizenship is important and valuable.

Bill C-3 aims to reform Canada's Citizenship Act. It addresses the first-generation limit on citizenship by descent, which has prevented some Canadians born abroad from passing on citizenship to their children born outside the country.

The bill responds to a 2023 Ontario Superior Court ruling declaring the first-generation limit unconstitutional and seeks to restore citizenship to the so-called lost Canadians. This ruling could have been appealed, and perhaps should have been.

Nevertheless, there are perhaps some injustices and problems, which this bill may correct, but as it stands, I fear it will do more harm than good. Removing the first-generation limit without a cap on generational descent will extend citizenship to persons with little or no tie to Canada, perhaps indefinitely. This may exacerbate citizenship tourism, whereby people claim the benefits of citizenship, such as health care or a passport, without contributing to Canadian society.

For a Canadian citizen parent born outside Canada to pass on citizenship to his or her children born abroad, Bill C-3 requires that the parent must demonstrate “a substantial connection to Canada”. These are fine words, but according to the bill, this amounts only to having been present in Canada for a mere 1,095 cumulative days before the child's birth. That is only three years, which may be accrued at any point in the parent's life—

Many Canadians will, I think, rightly wonder whether this really constitutes a substantial connection to our country. Many will expect that the government require more of its citizens.

Thank you again for your attention, Madam Chair and honourable members of the committee. I look forward to your questions.

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

Thank you, Mr. Bonner.

Mr. Chapman, you are next for five minutes.

Don Chapman M.S.C., Lost Canadians

I am the head of the Lost Canadians. I coined the term.

I lost my citizenship when I was six years old, because I was born in Canada, in wedlock and not adopted. Had any of those factors been different, I would have remained Canadian.

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

I have a point of order, Madam Chair. We're not getting interpretation.

There we go.

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

We'll start again.

4:45 p.m.

M.S.C., Lost Canadians

Don Chapman

I’m the head of the Lost Canadians. I coined the term. I lost my citizenship at age six because I was born in Canada, in wedlock, and not adopted. Had any of those factors been different, I would have remained Canadian. Are you confused? Well, of course, because the laws were and remain a convoluted mess. It took me 47 years to become Canadian again, as I was forced into becoming an immigrant and naturalized citizen.

To be clear, Bill C-3 is not about immigration. It’s the result of a court decision putting fairness into our Citizenship Act, righting historic wrongs and bringing the act into compliance with the charter. Saying that lost Canadians are immigrants is absurd. It’s a citizenship issue, period. To repeat, Bill C-3 is not about immigration.

Bill C-3 fixes the unconstitutionality of the first generation born abroad and, for the first time ever, makes the Citizenship Act charter-compliant. Women will have equal rights going forward and backward. How ironic that the same gender discrimination was in the Indian Act. Bill S-3 fixed that, with retroactive effect going back to 1870. Indigenous women could now confer Indian status but not citizenship, which, of course, begs a constitutional question about unequal rights still embedded in the Citizenship Act. Bill C-3 corrects that injustice.

For reference, because it's applicable, a second Supreme Court ruling, from the U.K., responded, in Advocate General for Scotland v. Romein. It means that no political party here has a choice. It’s a matter of upholding the charter and the rule of law. Years ago, Canadian women who married Americans were stripped of their citizenship—and, hey, what you don’t know about citizenship law can come back to hurt you or a loved one. Canada's very adept at making its own people stateless, with victims often being women and children. Bill C-3 corrects this as well.

Please get past surface reactions about non-mitigating factors like criminal background checks, which, for lost Canadians, was declared unconstitutional in a 1997 Supreme Court ruling: Benner v. Canada. Look also at the December 2007 CIMM committee report, which reads, and I quote:

Background checks are only appropriate for candidates seeking a grant of citizenship as opposed to those for whom citizenship is a birthright [and] this implies that lost Canadians should not be subjected to background checks as a precondition for having their citizenship resumed.

The case is closed on background checks—that is, unless you wish to go against the unanimous Supreme Court ruling, which, then, is a violation of the rule of law. Per the court, you don’t get to pick and choose. Everyone must be entitled to the same rights, and lost Canadians have a right to citizenship, so you, as parliamentarians...it's your job to defend and protect that right. If we must undergo criminal background checks to secure our constitutional right of citizenship, then it must be so for all Canadians. If we must own land or pay taxes, it has to apply to everyone—including newborns.

By conflating the issue with immigration, one, MPs don’t understand the difference, which is frightening because, when I am on an airplane, I expect the pilot to know how to fly and, likewise, I expect MPs to know their portfolio; two, MPs understand but choose to fearmonger and mislead—just look south to see the deterioration of a country when a major political party goes down that path—or three, it’s a combination of one and two, with all scenarios being bad, leaving Canadians, including children, in harm’s way.

Knowledge should win the day, which is impossible by not embracing it. One political party won’t meet with me. My calls go unanswered. When I went to testify years ago, the members controlling the committee went in camera and cancelled the meeting. No lost Canadian testified on a bill about lost Canadians, and before I testified on Bill S-230, I was asked not to divulge the accurate numbers. There’s a pattern here. Also, with my being given just five minutes to testify, well, no wonder we’re at 12 lost Canadian bills and counting. Would you get on a plane with a pilot who had just five minutes' worth of flight instruction?

I’m expecting you to do your job and, really, learn about the issue. Canada unconstitutionally denying Canadians their identity and culture through citizenship and violating the UN conventions on the rights of the child, the reduction of statelessness and the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women, is unconscionable.

The Bloc certainly understands and defends culture and identity.

Bill C-3 is the best remedy, as is.

4:50 p.m.

M.S.C., Lost Canadians

Don Chapman

I'd like to have amendments, but we can't delay. The suffering of fellow Canadians must end. I urge you not to have your name recorded for supporting human rights abuses and unequal rights. Rather, vote for Bill C-3.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

Thank you, Mr. Chapman.

Who will be speaking on this?

Mr. Jacques, you have the floor for five minutes.

Jason Jacques Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer

Good day, Madam Chair and members of the committee.

We published our independent cost estimate of Bill C-3, formerly Bill C-71, during the 44th Parliament, in December 2024.

Based on our analysis, we estimate the total net cost of the proposed amendments to the Citizenship Act would be $20.8 million over five years, beginning in the current fiscal year of 2025-26. The total number of persons who would be affected is estimated to be around 115,000 over the same period.

We would be pleased to respond to any questions you may have regarding our analysis of Bill C‑3.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

That was well short of five minutes, so thank you very much.

Now we will start our first round of questions at six minutes.

We are going to begin with Mr. Costas Menegakis.

Please go ahead for six minutes.

Costas Menegakis Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for appearing before us today.

Mr. Bonner, you've written, “It's time to totally overhaul Canada's immigration system,” and, “To put it bluntly, many of the immigrants that we attract and keep shouldn't be here.”

Could you expand on these statements, given that Bill C-3 allows people who have never been in Canada to become Canadian citizens without taking the citizenship test, without having knowledge of one of the two official languages of the country and without requiring any security checks? What risks do you see with this approach?

4:50 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Aristotle Foundation for Public Policy, As an Individual

Michael Bonner

Thank you.

My principal concern is to restore confidence in an immigration system that has served our country very well for rather a long time, and not only to restore confidence but also to restore the former consensus, which held good in this country and is not reflected elsewhere anymore, unfortunately.

We should also be wary about taking headlines from the things that I've written. The comment I was making in some of those things you referred to is a question of economic integration. Canada has been doing a worse and worse job on that score over recent years. The number of people who take citizenship and then leave the country, I think, speaks for itself and shows that this is a significant challenge the country has not been able to address.

I'd like to pivot back to what I said originally. The question is about restoring confidence in a system that I think has been badly shaken over the past several years. There are certainly merits, as we have heard, to the concept of restoring citizenship to those from whom it should not have been alienated in the first place, and that is something that merits exactly the kind of examination that's going on here right now.

There are many larger and broader questions pertaining to the integrity of our immigration system and public confidence in it, which this is not going to address, and if we get this wrong, it will only add to the problem.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

Considering that the Liberals have already wrecked our once-proud immigration system, I agree with a lot of the points you've made. We've had seven immigration ministers over the last 10 years, and it appears to be a problem finding a competent minister to run the file.

Do you think there would be the capacity to process thousands of new citizenship applications, given the current backlog and processing times today?

4:55 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Aristotle Foundation for Public Policy, As an Individual

Michael Bonner

Depending on the number of persons involved, that could be a very serious and certainly realistic concern. To judge by past examples, this is a concern that already exists within the system as it is.

I don't know if anyone has yet put forward numbers with confidence as to how many people this would affect. I've seen reports in the media of some figures that go as high as a million. Until we know that for certain, I would be very wary.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

Do you believe that Bill C-3 is missing an opportunity to clearly articulate and test for an understanding of the fundamental democratic values that you advocate for and that are expected of all Canadian citizens?

4:55 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Aristotle Foundation for Public Policy, As an Individual

Michael Bonner

I think that's something that should be given very serious consideration. Again, it speaks to the general loss of confidence that has taken place in our immigration system. We should get that right above all.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you, Mr. Bonner.

I'd like to shift over to the PBO officials who are here with us. Thank you for joining us.

Bill C-3 is a cut-and-paste bill. The minister was elected on April 28. Within a number of days, possibly a week or two, she was appointed a minister. A couple of days after that, she changed the title of Bill C-71 to Bill C-3. Have you seen any change? Have you done an update on the numbers you provided us? Is it still about 115,000 people who are going to be affected?

4:55 p.m.

Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer

Jason Jacques

We've looked at the legislation, and it seems to be substantially the same as the previous bill we costed for the previous Parliament. That cost estimate was prepared in December.

I noticed that, during the minister's earlier testimony, there was a reference to updated numbers with respect to 4,200 claims coming on. We haven't seen that data, so potentially we could circle back and update it. I would say that, substantially, we wouldn't be here at committee today if we weren't confident in the numbers that are currently on the website.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

I tend to believe your number.

4:55 p.m.

Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer

Jason Jacques

If it wasn't useful for Parliamentarians, we'd take it down.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

Have you done any estimates on how much these new Canadian citizens by descent would cost taxpayers in extra social and health care cost?

4:55 p.m.

Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer

Jason Jacques

No, we have not. The cost estimate is squarely focused around the cost of applications and processing.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

It's about 115,000 people. We don't know what impact it is going to have from a cost perspective.

Have you done any estimates on how this would impact the job crisis we're currently facing in Canada?

4:55 p.m.

Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer

Jason Jacques

We have not specifically with respect to this legislation. If it is the will and the interest of the committee, obviously the committee can pass a motion, and we'd be happy to go back and prepare additional estimates on this.