Evidence of meeting #39 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was business.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Francine Whiteduck  Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association
Keith Martell  Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, First Nations Bank of Canada
Kevin Schindelka  Director, Corporate Development, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association

10:05 a.m.

Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, First Nations Bank of Canada

Keith Martell

Exactly. The government is trying to convince people away from going into mortgages that are 50-year loans with 5% down. You don't want that, but you're encouraging first nations to go into 30-year bond financing with no money down and a 10-year fixed price. I don't know about you, but I think and I hope that in 10 years interest rates will be a little bit higher than they are today. We're at an all-time low. Banks like higher interest rates—I'm sorry.

Voices

Oh, oh!

10:05 a.m.

Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, First Nations Bank of Canada

Keith Martell

But we also pay depositors more money when interest rates are higher.

At the same time, what you're encouraging through FNFA is for people to be taking out big amounts of credit at all-time lows in interest rates and spreading the loan out over 30 years. There's no assurance that some of the assets being purchased with that 30-year money aren't the five-year assets. What are you going to do in five and ten years when the asset is depleted and there's no more revenue coming from it and you still have 20 years of loan to repay?

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON

That's an interesting point. Thank you.

I want to go back to the AFIs and how they lend. Is the interest rate for money loaned through an AFI going to be similar to that of a regular commercial bank? Is it lower, higher, or about the same?

10:05 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON

It's higher, and that's a reflection of risk, which is typical in banking. All right.

So when you say that the amount of money available to go out for loans has gradually been reduced over the years, that you have a 95% repayment rate, and that you have an interest rate that's higher than a commercial bank's, where has all that money gone? Presumably there's interest on repayment of principal and interest, so you have extra money coming back. Over time, wouldn't that build up a larger pool to lend? In effect, where did that money go?

10:10 a.m.

Director, Corporate Development, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association

Kevin Schindelka

No. A couple of years ago we appeared at this committee hearing, and at that time we were talking about the cost of capital and the yield that AFIs are able to obtain in the current market. The cost of capital exceeded the yield they could obtain, so—

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON

How does the cost of capital exceed when the money comes effectively from government revenues? What's the cost of capital there?

10:10 a.m.

Director, Corporate Development, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association

Kevin Schindelka

For cost of funds, there's zero cost of funds—we don't have to pay a depositor—but there is a cost of capital in terms of putting the loan out, pre- and post-care for the client, and collecting the loan, getting it back in.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON

Right. So those are the costs of running—

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blake Richards

I'm sorry, Mr. Seeback. You've exceeded your time.

We're moving across now to Mr. Ravignat.

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Is it okay if I share my time with Carol? I only have a very quick question.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blake Richards

Yes.

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

We've talked a lot about capacity development. The answers I'm getting are that it's a problem and that there are some very limited ways of addressing the issue. I don't know if we could think a little more broadly as to what solutions we need to put in place to ensure that capacity development and what role the federal government can play.

Are there examples or models that are more successful than others? Has something happened in Kitigan Zibi, for example, a mentorship program or something, that could be used as a model? What role can the federal government play in that kind of education?

10:10 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association

Francine Whiteduck

In terms of the capacity in the AFI network itself, the 58 AFIs that we do have are governed independently in their own region. They each have their own board of directors. When you look at them, you see that the AFIs themselves have different capacities. The ACCs tend to operate a little differently; a lot of the successes we're seeing are coming out from there. You also have the Community Futures Development Corporations. They need probably a little more capacity development, because of the nature of how they're structured, etc. That's why we're looking at the whole standards and accreditation issue for AFIs.

In terms of the programs to strengthen, it's not only the network but the people who we serve in the network. We are talking about financial literacy. We are talking about working with communities in a much more intense way to really bring that business education to the community at all levels, from kids in school to the people who want to start a business. There's a lot of opportunity there.

I know what you mean about Kitigan Zibi. There's much potential there.

But again, it's really about getting the understanding of how do we begin to animate all of this and the different structures that are required. It's an education process. It has to happen with the chief and council and other players in the community, as well as the private sector that is starting to develop in the community. I think that being clear on the roles that each has is a big part of the educational needs in the community. It's really hard to make that happen when you're able to finance maybe three or four businesses a year. It takes a much broader discussion, from governance to models that are available for communities.

In terms of some recommendations for the committee, it's really that we need to broaden the understanding of what is and is not working in the communities. I think we get a sense of it. We keep hearing about the finance authority in the first nations financial management act as one model, but it's not for everybody. To be honest, I don't know the extent to which that is subscribed and has pulled participants in, or the impact. We're just now starting to see the loans that are made under that model, but there are also alternate models, and we need to understand what they are and we need to assist the communities at the chief and council level to be able to put those into play and test them.

The AFIs come into the picture in working with the entrepreneurs and building that capacity there. There are a lot of different roles going on and that you see are required in the community. A number of players have to be animated, not just business lenders but the whole community.

That goes for both on and off the reserve as well. A lot of the businesses, if you look at them, or a lot of the activity in the community, is very concentrated in the band council because of its authority in the community and as the only legal framework that exists. How do you step out of that and broaden the access and the participation of a much greater segment of the community in order for them to be able to be owners and managers of the capital as well as the structures within their community? I think it has to be separated out a bit.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blake Richards

Thank you very much.

We're moving back over to Mr. Seeback again. I keep stopping him, and he just keeps on coming right back. It's his turn again.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON

If you hadn't interrupted me, Mr. Chair, I would have been done 15 minutes ago.

Voices

Oh, oh!

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON

Kevin, I want to get back to where we were finishing off. Basically what you're saying is that what I'm going to call the “overhead” of operations for AFIs in effect exceeds the revenues they get from interest on loans.

10:15 a.m.

Director, Corporate Development, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association

Kevin Schindelka

Yes. You call it “overhead” and we call it “administrative expenses”, and loan loss exceeds the revenue obtained from the loan portfolio.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON

How does your funding work, then, for AFIs? Are there different baskets? Do you get x basket of funds for loans? Can you can take an amount of money per year and loan it out, and then there's x amount of money for operating costs? Or do you just get one amount of money, where they say “here's your money for loans”, and you figure out how to operate on a break-even or profitable basis?

10:15 a.m.

Director, Corporate Development, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association

Kevin Schindelka

Aboriginal capital corporations are left on their own. They don't get subsidized for operations, so a couple of years ago, we came up with a concept of a program that was introduced on April 1, 2014, and augments the revenue they receive and offsets the shortfall. For years, the shortfall has been 8% per year. Now we have a program that says if your AFI makes new loans, in addition to the rate you charge the client we will top you up with 8%, plus 5% to provide all the pre- and post-loan-care costs that you incur.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON

Who's topping up?

10:15 a.m.

Director, Corporate Development, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association

Kevin Schindelka

A federal government program through AANDC is topping this up.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON

I see.