Evidence of meeting #137 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was businesses.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
I'm sorry, Keith; I'm going to have to cut you off there, because we're well over time. There might be an opportunity for that thought to be expanded on with some of our other members here.
Mr. Lemire, we'll go to you for six minutes.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Dr. Jaime, you said that a letter could be sufficient documentation to recognize a person's indigenous identity. But it would be fairly easy to forge or copy a letter. Have you put mechanisms in place to detect false declarations and potential fraud?
Vice-Provost, Indigenous Engagement, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
Just to go back, we don't use the term “identity”. Identity is a very multi-faceted way of seeing an individual. We're looking at membership and citizenship. These letters come directly from the bands themselves. Our agreement is with the bands, their chiefs and councils and their registrars. They are the ones who submit those letters to the individual and submit them back. We then contact the bands to ensure that that individual is registered on their membership list. They're not letters from just anywhere. They come directly from the indigenous governments themselves.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
What is your position on the challenges around recognizing new Métis communities, particularly when there are concerns about the lack of consultation with first nations or accusations of identity fraud or territorial fraud? What steps can be taken to ensure that these processes adhere to the principles of transparency, inclusion and reconciliation?
Vice-Provost, Indigenous Engagement, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
The citizenship cards that are issued by the provincial Métis governments are the ones that we accept. We contact those provincial governments directly. Métis Nation-Saskatchewan is one of those that we have a direct agreement with. Their registrar does the adjudication of the document itself, of the citizenship card itself. We also accept from the registrar a letter that states that the individual has met the criteria to be a citizen of Métis Nation-Saskatchewan, which is also another form of adjudication that the governments themselves submit to us.
We have nation-to-nation relationships directly with those governments, not with the locals within the province but directly with the governments.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Regarding the new Métis communities in Ontario, it's crucial to make sure they meet the criteria outlined in court rulings, like the Powley test, which requires clear evidence of a historical community and cultural continuity.
Accusations of manipulation or identity fraud are extremely serious and warrant a full investigation, not only to protect the integrity of Métis rights, but also to avoid needlessly creating tension between indigenous groups.
Do you have a mechanism for ensuring that the national Métis community in Ontario is recognized by indigenous communities, for example, or by legal bodies?
Vice-Provost, Indigenous Engagement, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
The University of Saskatchewan is not the adjudicator of these documents, nor is it the adjudicator of who is and who is not indigenous. Specifically to your question, those conversations about Métis membership or citizenship have to happen within the Métis community and their governments. It is not for us as an institution, as a colonial institution, to step in the middle of that. We go directly to the governments to ask them what they're accepting and what they want us to accept. We don't get in the middle of conversations about who is and who isn't, or about how they're going to determine their citizenship. That's not for us to say.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
You don't recognize any Métis individuals or any Métis community. But let's say that I decide to form a Quebec Métis government, that I grant permission to recognize the members of our organization and that I claim to be a national Métis Quebec government. You would be able to consult me about whether my cards are valid and then allow members of my community to study at your university, right?
Vice-Provost, Indigenous Engagement, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
The government has to be part of the section 35 rights holders. They have to be part of the bilateral agreements. If a Quebec Métis government pops up and wants to claim to be indigenous, that doesn't make them indigenous. That is not the process for section 35 rights.
Bilateral agreements are absolutely important. We're looking to the governments that are recognized, that are part of those conversations and that have those rights holders. They're the ones that determine it.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
So what rights do you recognize for the Ontario Métis, aside from those recognized by the Powley test, which primarily apply to the Métis of Sault Ste. Marie?
Vice-Provost, Indigenous Engagement, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
The Métis Nation of Ontario has the right to determine their own membership and citizenship.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Lemire.
Next, we'll go to Ms. Gazan.
You have the floor for six minutes.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Thank you.
Thank you to all of the witnesses.
My first round of questions is for you, Dr. Jaime.
I spent a long career in academia. I really commend the University of Saskatchewan for dealing with this issue head-on. I also come from Saskatchewan. My community is Wood Mountain Lakota First Nation. I'm proud that the province in which my first nation is located is dealing with this in a way that understands it's delicate because of our complex colonial histories. We heard from Dr. Pam Palmater in one of the other panels that it's delicate. I felt some sort of vindication—I remember this—when the University of Saskatchewan dealt with Carrie Bourassa. She claimed indigenous ancestry and received bursaries, grants and research dollars when she, in fact, wasn't indigenous. It's something that is so common in academia. I also know, as somebody who spent a long time in them, that universities are very colonial institutions.
How did you work with the university to begin the process of actually dealing with this and taking it seriously?
Vice-Provost, Indigenous Engagement, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
That's a great question.
Anything we're doing in colonial institutions is always a challenge.
I had the immense pleasure of having a provost—my direct report—who herself is indigenous from Samoa. I said we need to be proactive about this, rather than just reactive every time a fraudulent case comes along. She was absolutely supportive of this process, as was the administration of the institution. The institution stands by the truth and reconciliation calls to action and its own indigenous strategy. Holding them and all of us accountable is very important. This policy came about utilizing our indigenous strategy and making sure it's about principles over personalities. It's not just about one fraudulent case. Fraud is fraud. It's about acknowledging it and making sure indigenous voices are at the centre of that conversation. That was, by all means, the most important part of this process.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
I've heard a lot today about whether it should be criminalized. We have a Criminal Code. Identity fraud is already part of the Criminal Code. We know there are cases where people have been charged under the Criminal Code for identity fraud, as with the Gill case we heard about earlier today.
We're having this study because of an issue with a minister who claimed to be indigenous. That's how it came about. It's an opportunity, as well, to learn how to do things differently and make sure that, in programs designed for indigenous folks, the benefits are received by indigenous folks.
Do you feel the model you're using in Saskatchewan could be adopted by the federal government for its procurement strategy?
Vice-Provost, Indigenous Engagement, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
Yes, I do. Each time we're challenged with a new scenario or a new situation that puts our policy into question, I'm amazed by the words of our knowledge keepers and our elders and the support they provided in creating this policy.
Ultimately, our principle is that it is the indigenous peoples' decision and their right to determine who their members are, and that becomes the core value for this policy. I think that can absolutely be the core value of any government or of any other institution creating a policy that centres around indigenous voices.
Too often, the entirety of colonization has been about putting indigenous voices to the side, not allowing and not imagining that indigenous people can make their own decisions and are intelligent enough to do this work. We see that as racist, obviously, but also inappropriate and unprofessional in every way. Indigenous people have been doing this work forever, so they need to be at the centre of that conversation.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
I agree with you. I want to ask a question, though.
I am from one of the families that was really impacted by the child welfare system. Some of my cousins ended up in care and some ended up in residential schools. Particularly with regard to the sixties scoop, there are some people who were part of the sixties scoop who try to go back into their communities and are not accepted, so it's delicate. If we leave it up to nations to decide, which I totally agree with....
I want to understand how your university is dealing with the complexities that have been caused by violent colonialism.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
I'm sorry. We are over the time. If you can provide a brief answer, please do.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
If you want to answer that question, we'll finish it.
No, we've run out of time.
Okay—please go on. I'm sorry.
Vice-Provost, Indigenous Engagement, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
We work directly with the individual to help them connect back with the community. We walk with them on this path. We're not about just hitting the button to say deny, deny, deny, but rather working with communities and the government, making sure that we are walking with people to help them reconnect with the community.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Ms. Gazan.
That takes us into the next round, starting with Mr. Schmale.
Conservative
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
In this round, we were going to do four minutes, four minutes, two minutes and two minutes. We'll see how this round goes.
I'll turn it over to you.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Thank you very much, Chair.
I'll start with you, Mr. Henry, if I can. Hopefully, Vancouver avoids that centimetre or so of snow you were talking about. I know that will have impacts on the city if it arrives.
In the last panel, through testimony that has come out, we talked a lot about about the fact that the department knew fraudulent businesses were listed in the indigenous procurement program directory. We know many of the businesses haven't actually been audited to verify if they are, in fact, truly indigenous. We talked a lot today with this panel especially about consequences for those who are falsely claiming that status and what should happen if they secure a contract.
At the same time, we haven't actually discussed what should happen to the department that knew and didn't do anything. The fact is that this was all known within government circles, yet nothing consequential has happened. To my knowledge, through the information we have in front of us, nobody's actually been fired.
President and Chief Executive Officer, BC Métis Federation
Is that a question or...?