Evidence of meeting #133 for International Trade in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was emissions.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON
I'll be very brief.
Perhaps you could submit this in writing. Europe brags that labour unions were born there during the Industrial Revolution. Has the European Union done any kind of analysis on what the CBAM would do for workers?
If you have anything, just send it in writing. We don't have time to discuss it.
Senior Economist, National Services, Canadian Union of Public Employees
Absolutely. I can check with our European counterparts on the CETA DAG and get back to you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
Thank you very much.
Mr. Savard-Tremblay, go ahead for two and a half minutes, please.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Ms. MacEwen, I imagine you're quite familiar with the carbon market between Quebec and California.
Senior Economist, National Services, Canadian Union of Public Employees
Yes.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
How could the mechanism we are talking about align with Quebec's system?
Senior Economist, National Services, Canadian Union of Public Employees
That is very interesting. I actually don't have that expertise. I'm sorry.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Do any of the other union representatives want to answer or weigh in on the subject?
Go ahead, Mr. Campbell.
Partner, McMillan LLP, As an Individual
I'm not a climate policy expert, but I will offer a couple of comments from a trade law perspective.
If you're doing a border carbon adjustment, there is no reason Canada cannot recognize carbon priced in the U.S.—in the California system or the other dozen or so states. We could use that as part of a carbon border adjustment mechanism. From our point of view, from a trade law point of view in Canada, keeping national treatment in mind, we probably need to work toward charging a border carbon adjustment that reflects the federal benchmark, because foreigners should be entitled to national treatment, the best treatment, like anybody in Canada.
We probably wouldn't gear it precisely to Quebec. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be close. We would just work from a federal minimum standard, if I can put it that way.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
If I understand correctly, you think the Quebec-California carbon exchange could be a good model for the rest of Canada.
Partner, McMillan LLP, As an Individual
Again, I'll confine myself to the trade law aspects of it: It's potentially used within that context.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
I see Ms. MacEwen nodding.
For the record, would you say that you agree?
Senior Economist, National Services, Canadian Union of Public Employees
Yes, of course, because it's a proven market. It could certainly be used as an example of something that's been successful in levelling the playing field between trading partners.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Do the United Steelworkers representatives want to add anything?
Legislative Staff Representative, Political Action and Communications, United Steelworkers
I agree.
Liberal
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I appreciate the comments from my Bloc Québécois colleague. It is a very interesting question, and I think we'll have to review sometime in the future, as it relates to this study, the existing model in Quebec and the integration potential. That's a large enough question, but it's beside the point and I digress.
To really hammer it down in our recommendations, I want to get to the importance of CBAMs as a tool in the tool box for Canadians. It's true that we're on the steps of a climate crisis. We need carbon pricing in the country. New Democrats in particular were concerned about the type of carbon pricing that exists in Canada today, but largely, we accept the principle of carbon pricing, as it needs to hit and, most particularly, look at the highest-emitting producers and industries. That's where we believe carbon pricing is most effective, but if it's going to exist, it's up against a backdrop of policy alternatives.
The alternative, of course, is the Conservative position, which is to not have a carbon pricing mechanism in Canada. From my perspective, the Conservative proposal would obviously result in a larger acceleration of the climate crisis. Maybe there would be multiple seasons where the forestry industries in Quebec don't have any harvesting ability, or multiple seasons with huge impacts on agriculture. This is rather than regulating or trying to regulate the immense emissions that are polluting our atmosphere.
Those two positions are the ones that I think Canadians are stuck between right now. What is your advice to Canadians when they hear these two solutions, and what do they mean for their jobs and their futures?
Go ahead, Ms. MacEwen.
Senior Economist, National Services, Canadian Union of Public Employees
That's a very big question. Certainly you can try to make the carbon price more fair and more effective, but globally, we are moving towards pricing carbon. If we were to get rid of a carbon price in Canada, our exporters would likely be penalized for that globally, as they're paying carbon border adjustments in other places.
When we have an industrial strategy recognizing that this is where we're moving, we can support industries in making the transitions they need to make, whether that's with research and development or with an investment in infrastructure that will help them reach their goals. That is how we keep good-paying jobs in Canada and go on a more successful path where we are both reducing climate emissions and protecting industry and jobs in Canada.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
Thank you to our witnesses for the valuable testimony.
To members, we have no meeting on Monday—if everybody recalls that from last week. I wish everybody a very merry Christmas. Everybody should get a good rest and come back ready to battle the world in 2025.
The meeting is adjourned.