Justice Committee on Sept. 25th, 2025

[Brian Sauvé]

I don't think they have, and I think the more any government can focus on firearms offences, or firearms-related offences, as well as domestic and intimate partner violence, the more Canadians will feel safe. The more focus you put on that, the more provinces and the more Crown attorneys and judges will pay attention, and we will get to a world where it is not okay to do any of those things.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Thank you, Mr. Chang. Your time is up.

Members, if we keep it tight, we have time to do another full round. It will be led off by MP Baber for five minutes, and then MP Saini for five as well.

Mr. Fortin will then have two and a half minutes. After that, Mr. Brock will have five minutes, followed by Mr. Chang. That should take us to 5:30 p.m.

I will now give the floor to Mr. Baber.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Sauvé, one of the big fails of the Liberal Bill C-75 is that it created a diversionary regime for offences involving failures to comply with court orders, so that offences such as failure to appear, breach of an undertaking and even breach of a bail condition may go unpunished.

Basically, Bill C-75 allows the Crown to divert or remove such cases from the docket. Crowns may be too busy, and they may be tempted to let these violations go.

Would you agree that this diversionary regime contributed to additional crime, and contributes to additional crime? What message does it send? Does it undermine the administration of justice in your view?

[Brian Sauvé]

That's a hard question to answer, especially within your five minutes.

As my colleague Tom said earlier, the trends are not new. We've seen conditional release on the upswing, especially during my service.

I'd recommend a couple of witnesses for you. Amanda Butler is a fantastic Ph.D. criminologist out of Simon Fraser University. She and retired chief Doug LePard did a study for the Province of British Columbia about random stranger violence, basically, in the streets of Vancouver in 2021.

They found that we are all creatures of habit: During the COVID pandemic, JJPs and judges were reticent to deny bail for even the most violent offences because of overpopulation or the creation of super-spreader cells within pretrial custody jails. That trend has continued post COVID and post vaccination, because we've become creatures of habit, so is it just Bill C-75, or is it societal in nature?

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thank you. I was specifically asking about those types of diversions.

I want to move on to Mr. Campbell.

Mr. Campbell, I want to first of all pay tribute and send all my love to the family of Karolina Huebner-Makurat, a 44-year-old mother of two who was killed when she was struck by a stray bullet outside of a drug consumption site in Leslieville.

Yesterday, a drug dealer who sold fentanyl outside of that drug consumption site pleaded guilty to manslaughter. This was a 22-year-old man who admitted participating in a robbery that resulted in Karolina's killing. We all remember that tragic case.

Liberal drug policies are putting Canadians at risk. They don't just perpetuate addiction. They also attract crime, trafficking and other criminal activity.

We also will remember the testimony of London's chief of police, who indicated that much of the safe supply is often diverted and sold on the street for profit or often for deadlier drugs.

Would you agree with me that the Liberal drug policies, and specifically the drug injection sites that Pierre Poilievre correctly refers to as “drug dens”, increase crime and violence on our streets?

[Clayton Campbell]

They absolutely do. We can follow up with the data on that. They're a mess. If anybody has been around them, they're a disaster.... For the people who have to live close to them, I feel sorry for them. It's horrible. We've talked about people openly using drugs right on the street, right now. I can take you to any number of them.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Also, of course, that attracts trafficking and violent crime and, just like in Karolina's case, robbery.

I'll take this opportunity to take you to a local Toronto issue, and that, as you may know, is that Toronto's homeless shelters now effectively function as satellite drug injection sites. Is that correct?

[Clayton Campbell]

Absolutely, and unfortunately, near one of our offices. I can see it from my office window.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Right now, the City of Toronto is proposing an additional 20 shelters where anybody can come in and get drug paraphernalia and needles. One of them is close to my riding, at Keele and Wilson, and the other 19 also are in residential neighbourhoods.

They're asking the federal government to pay for such construction. This is at Caledonia and Eglinton and Keele and Wilson, in some of the most populated areas and surrounded by schools and day cares.

What do you think the construction of such shelters would do vis-à-vis crime to these residential neighbourhoods?

[Clayton Campbell]

We can get you the data that show that when there are consumption sites in neighbourhoods, violence, criminality and victimization all increase. I can get you that information.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I sincerely appreciate that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Thank you.

Mr. Saini, you have five minutes.

[Gurbux Saini, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.

Our government has consistently said that reform must be evidence-based, not slogan-driven. Conservatives will say jail, not bail.

As an expert, you have stressed the need for smart, targeted reforms. What message would you want Canadians to hear about why evidence-based reform is the right path forward?

Mr. Sauvé, please.

[Brian Sauvé]

I think everybody is familiar with Amazon. If I'm looking for a set of earbuds, am I just going to buy the first ones to pop up? No. I'm going to go in looking for something. I have my budget. I know what kind of quality I want. I'm going in with the evidence that I want for making a purchase.

Canada here is not going in seeking evidence from all of these witnesses through this study to figure out what's the best way that we can federally, provincially and territorially make better bail decisions. That needs evidence. We don't have that yet.

[Gurbux Saini, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you.

I heard “youth exploitation” several times. What do you think is the core reason for that? Is it poverty? Is it new immigrants? Is it our citizens from broken families?

Mr. Stamatakis.

[Tom Stamatakis]

It's all of that. You have kids who are coming into situations where they're being inundated through a variety of platforms—social media platforms or what have you. They're living in challenging socio-economic environments. You have, in some cases, a breakdown of the family structure. In other cases, you have people just trying to survive and make a living, so they don't have the time to invest in their kids.

It's all of those things. It's a lack of programming, which creates vulnerability among the youth. You then have predators out there who see that and take advantage of it. They lure them into these kinds of criminal activities that create havoc in our communities and destroy their lives. It's all of that, and we need to do better.

Earlier you asked what the message is. The message, I think, is that the federal government's going to take a leadership role and that we're going to work collaboratively to get ahead of these issues. That's the message. That's what Canadians want to hear.

[Gurbux Saini, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you.

[Brian Sauvé]

I would add only this to my colleague's response about youth: What's the penalty? What's the consequence for recruiting youth into doing these things? These are adults who are taking advantage of disadvantaged youth. There are no consequences for that. If they get arrested, they might be part of an organized crime ring, and they might face charges for this, that and the other thing, but there's no charge for taking advantage of the youth.

[Gurbux Saini, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Campbell, you have said that there are many times when you see people commit a crime but you don't charge them. Is that also not sending the wrong message to society—that so-and-so got off without doing time, so I'm going to do the same thing?

[Clayton Campbell]

Absolutely.

I hate coming back to resources, but we would need literally 100 police officers at any number of corners in the city of Toronto to try to enforce it.

As we've also mentioned, when those charges would be withdrawn anyway, you start to get into the cycle of—and Tom mentioned it—thinking, “Why bother? Why am I going to go through this entire process—make an arrest, maybe have to have a physical altercation with somebody, seize the drugs, submit the drugs—only to see it withdrawn?” I don't disagree with you, but that's the reality of what's happening on the streets.

[Gurbux Saini, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Both the National Police Federation and the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police have said that bail reform should be informed by a strong partnership with law enforcement. What role do you see for ongoing federal police collaboration in reviewing bail outcomes and proposing further refinements?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

We'll need a super brief answer from, perhaps, one of you. We're running up on time.

[Tom Stamatakis]

The start is that you invited us to appear in order to provide you with some information and evidence. That's a good start.

Somebody mentioned some kind of a national summit where we get everybody together to try to come up with tangible, actionable solutions. That would be another great step in the right direction.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Thank you.

Mr. Fortin, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Gentlemen, I talked to you about the fight against organized crime. I think that's important. We talked about young people being recruited to commit crimes. I imagine that, in about 90% of cases, criminal organizations recruit them. There is also the issue of drug trafficking. I think it always comes back to organized crime. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression that eliminating organized crime would make our streets much safer.

You seem to be saying that the current tools are effective in fighting organized crime, and I imagine you've had success in that fight, since you're telling me that the registry isn't necessary. What tools have given you the best results?