Evidence of meeting #6 for Justice and Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-9.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
You think that bail for first-degree murder is actually legitimate at times.
Associate Professor, Department of Sociology, Queen’s University, As an Individual
I think in some circumstances it could be possible. I'm not a lawyer. I'm not the one making these determinations. I trust the professionals who have all of the available information to be able to make the appropriate decisions in these cases.
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
Another comment you made was that we cannot predict future behaviour. Basically, you were saying that we can't predict who will commit future offences. I would assume from this that you're against the “three strikes and you're out” law that has been proposed. Is that correct?
Associate Professor, Department of Sociology, Queen’s University, As an Individual
Absolutely.
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
How many convictions is enough for the system to say that it has a pretty good indication that this person is going to reoffend?
Associate Professor, Department of Sociology, Queen’s University, As an Individual
We might be able to look at measures that indicate that somebody has a record of offending. That is exactly the kind of information that is considered by those who are making bail decisions, and—
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
You do think that multiple convictions should actually count against someone in their bail eligibility.
Associate Professor, Department of Sociology, Queen’s University, As an Individual
I think it should be a factor that is considered and weighed appropriately. It should not be the driving or the only reason. For each one of those offence convictions, that individual has already been punished and held accountable. At some point, we have to acknowledge that they have moved on. Let's focus on what the allegations are of what they've done now.
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
Someone who has committed murder against an intimate partner, someone who has robbed a bank, someone who has committed violent offences—
Associate Professor, Department of Sociology, Queen’s University, As an Individual
Allegedly.
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
No, I'm talking about someone who's been convicted. They have five convictions under their belt. Your view is that it's a clean slate, if they've already served their sentence, the next time they're up for bail.
Associate Professor, Department of Sociology, Queen’s University, As an Individual
I said nothing about it being a clean slate. I said absolutely nothing—
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
You did. You said that they've already paid their price.
Associate Professor, Department of Sociology, Queen’s University, As an Individual
They have paid that price. Nonetheless, the criminal record is a critical component that is considered by decision-makers when making an evaluation on the level of risk. We cannot perfectly predict. We can make predictions on the basis of offences or records, but they are in imperfect. We are getting it wrong a lot.
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
Mr. Spratt, you mentioned in your comments that we have a mechanism already, which is appeal, but there have been numerous instances of people committing often violent offences while out on bail. Is the process working? Is the process of letting the Crown appeal, if they feel that bail is too lenient, working?
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
What would you say needs to change in the bail system? Keep in mind that we have about 30 seconds left here.
Criminal Lawyer, partner at AGP LLP, As an Individual
I think a number of things need to change. We need to have timely bail hearings. We need to have less volume in bail courts. Get rid of some of those low-level property offences. Those people are taking up time that the court could use to consider some of those higher and more serious cases.
I also think we need to have more access to supports. There are some very good programs in Ottawa. The John Howard Society bail program, independent third party verifications and things like that can go a long way to mitigating risk and making sure we're not filling our jails with people who will come out in a worse situation and are legally not guilty until their trial, until they are convicted.
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
I'm sorry. I thought I had five minutes.
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
Thank you.
This is a bonus round, Mr. Spratt. As you look at this system, would your view also be that bail is currently too hard to get?
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
When you look at violent offenders who are recommitting, and we've brought forward a number of these cases before this committee, what is your message to victims whose loved one would still be here if an offender had been kept behind bars instead of released on bail?
