Evidence of meeting #3 for Veterans Affairs in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was recommendations.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Colonel  Retired) Nishika Jardine (Veterans Ombud, Office of the Veterans Ombud
Schippers  Deputy Veterans Ombud, Office of the Veterans Ombudsman

The Chair Liberal Marie-France Lalonde

Good afternoon, everyone.

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number three of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

The committee is meeting for a briefing by the veterans ombud.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Before we continue, I would ask that all in-person participants consult the guidelines written on the cards that are on the table. These measures are in place to help prevent audio and feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters.

As always, thank you very much to the interpreters.

You will also notice a QR code on the card, which links to a short awareness video.

I'd like to outline a few rules for witnesses and members to ensure that the meeting goes smoothly.

Before speaking, please wait for me to recognize you by name. If you are participating by video conference, please click on the microphone icon to turn on your microphone, and please mute your microphone when you aren't speaking.

As for interpretation, those of you on Zoom have a choice, at the bottom of your screen, between floor, English or French. Those of you in the room can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

I remind you that all comments from members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

For members in the room, please raise your hand if you wish to speak. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as well as we can, and we appreciate your patience and understanding.

I would like to welcome our witnesses: Colonel (Retired) Nishika Jardine, veterans ombud, and Duane Schippers, deputy veterans ombud.

We will proceed to our panellists' opening remarks, followed by a question and answer session.

Witnesses, thank you very much for being here. You're officially our first witnesses. We look forward to hearing from you.

Ms. Jardine, you have the floor.

Colonel Retired) Nishika Jardine (Veterans Ombud, Office of the Veterans Ombud

Good afternoon, Madam Chair, members of the committee. Thank you for inviting me to address you about the work of the office of the veterans ombud. Today, I am pleased to be joined by my deputy and legal counsel, Mr. Duane Schippers.

As you may know, the office was established by order in council in 2007, and I am the fourth veterans ombud. Our mandate, simply put, is to investigate complaints and challenge the policies and decisions of Veterans Affairs Canada where we find individual or systemic unfairness.

When I was appointed in November 2020, it was my personal impression that the majority of serving members and veterans had no idea of the existence of our office. Once the pandemic travel restrictions lifted, we undertook an ambitious outreach program.

As of last week, we have been to every major military base. We held town halls in and around those locations to explain what we do and to hear directly from military and RCMP serving members, veterans, survivors and families.

I must say that the majority of veterans are satisfied with Veterans Affairs and what they receive in benefits. Many tell me how they feel well taken care of by VAC, but we have also heard the opposite, not all of which are on things that VAC has the authority to rectify. The most compelling is that of access to a family doctor or primary care.

As provided in the National Defence Act, regular force and some reserve force members receive all of their health care from the military medical system. On their release, they can obtain a provincial health card, and they are completely on their own to find a doctor. Many of them cannot. Without primary care, it can be impossible to refill prescriptions, particularly complex ones. Without primary care, it can be impossible to get the diagnosis they need to submit a disability claim to VAC. This is a complex issue that crosses both federal and provincial jurisdictions.

Likely as a result of our outreach program, our office has seen a 35% increase in individual complaints since 2020. Among the top complaints we receive are complaints about wait times for disability benefits, which we can do little about, treatment benefit denials, and complaints related to the rehabilitation program. Complaints are reviewed by our trained analysts, who determine whether the complainant was treated fairly. Where we find unfairness, we identify that to the Department of Veterans Affairs, or VAC, who will in most cases take steps to resolve the unfairness.

Our systemic work likewise seeks to resolve unfairness in the administration of veterans’ benefits and programs. Our website provides every systemic report we have written. In our “Spotlight” publication, every still-valid recommendation is listed together with its implementation status and whether the department accepts the recommendation.

This committee recently published a historic report on women veterans. We have also done work in this area. We received a complaint that the disability pensions of former RCMP women members were being reduced by the Merlo Davidson sexual misconduct class action settlement amounts they had received. I wrote to the minister with our findings that Veterans Affairs was unfairly reducing the disability pensions of women RCMP members who had received settlement compensation. As a result, VAC contacted the affected women and resolved the unfairness.

We were alerted to a possible unfairness in VAC processes for handling sexual dysfunction claims related to psychiatric conditions. We investigated and found systemic unfairness for women veterans in certain decision-making processes. VAC has since implemented our recommendations.

My first appearance before this committee was on the subject of our report and recommendation for the provision of mental health treatment for family members in their own right for conditions related to service. We say that when the member serves, the family also serves. I have heard many heartbreaking stories of how family members can struggle with mental health because they are part of a military or RCMP family. I must credit Veterans Affairs for doing their best within the legislative guidelines to provide some mental health supports to family members, provided they can link it to the well-being of the veteran, but it is not enough. This recommendation will require legislative change.

To be honest, the CAF and the RCMP have long depended on the silent support of our families. Veteran legislation, regulations and policies have likewise done the same thing. For example, the veterans independence program is designed to provide military veterans with some assistance in remaining in their own homes for as long as they can, but the VAC policy for administering this program presumes that a live-in relative should take on the share of the veteran's household tasks that the veteran can no longer do. I wrote to the minister last year that it is not fair to ask a veteran's live-in relatives to take on the work that cannot be done by a veteran whose illness or injury is service-related. It is time to stop asking families over and over again to shoulder the burden of their veterans' service.

Veterans Affairs Canada is charged with delivering benefits and programs to a unique community of Canadians who value trust and truth as the high-water mark of service. We know that institutional trust is strengthened by clear, consistent and truthful communication. Veterans are highly sensitive to matters of trust. I have heard from some veterans and their families whose trust in the department has been eroded. They say, “I don’t even understand why I have been denied this benefit.”

I firmly believe that the overarching purpose of our office is to reconnect veterans to Veterans Affairs Canada when they lose their trust in the department. This does not mean we always take the veteran's side when they come to us with a complaint. Indeed, we render a service of equal value when we say to a veteran, “Here are the facts of your case. Here are the rules that apply. The department has treated you fairly.” In my view, the key is transparency.

My office will continue to focus on how Veterans Affairs engages and communicates with veterans and their families, and specifically with those whose needs are more acute. We will continue to assist in navigating VAC benefits and services. Where we find unfairness, we will work to identify those gaps and barriers so that all veterans and their family members can request and receive the supports that Parliament has put in place for them to move forward in their civilian lives once their service to Canada is complete.

The Chair Liberal Marie-France Lalonde

Thank you very much, Colonel Jardine.

On behalf of all of us, I'll say thank you for your service, especially on this week. I think yesterday or the day before was family day for our veterans' families. It's always a pleasure to recognize your work and the extraordinary work of our military and our veterans.

We will now proceed with our round of questions. Each of you will start with six minutes.

Mr. Tolmie, you are the first.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I echo the comments. I know we've had you come here before.

Thank you for your service. Thank you for your role with the ombud. After reading your report, I would like to compliment you. It's a very good report, very comprehensive. I like the fact that you've included a timeline and that you're updating us on what's been implemented and what hasn't been implemented.

I read through where it says, “Partially Agree” and “Partially Implemented”. What does that mean to the reader? It's just in chart form, and I need a little bit of an understanding on that if you could share that with me.

Nishika Jardine

You're speaking about our “Spotlight” report where we list every recommendation that's still valid. “Partially Agree” means that there might be some aspect of the recommendation that the department concurs with and some aspect that it doesn't agree with.

We spent a great deal of time working on this report, and we were back and forth with Veterans Affairs. With regard to implementation, if we find that they've made enough progress that we can say that it looks like it's going to come to completion, then we say that it's “In Progress” or “Partially Implemented”.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK

Thank you very much.

Would you say that your report is firm but fair, recognizing both sides and the challenges of implementing some of the recommendations you've brought forward?

Nishika Jardine

We certainly acknowledge that it takes time to implement change. For the department to make these changes, it's not as simple as just waving your hand. There's policy that needs to be written, and there are things that need to be put in place. We fully appreciate that it can take time for recommendations to be implemented or be in progress to being implemented.

For example, while we've put out a report in the past year, we don't track that yet. We've listed the report and the recommendations, but we say it's not yet tracked because we give a full year before we ask them how it's going on this one.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK

Thank you for your help on that.

Would you say that all of the recommendations you bring forward are ones that should be implemented?

Nishika Jardine

That's a very good question. It's a question we ask ourselves.

We recently had the entire slate of recommendations reviewed by an outside agency for relevance. We've removed the recommendations that are overcome by events. They're just no longer valid. I can say with certainty that the recommendations you see listed in that report are ones that the office continues to stand behind.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK

That brings me to this question, and I want your honest opinion—that's why you're here. Do you feel it's difficult to implement the recommendations you've brought forward to VAC?

Nishika Jardine

The recommendations span a whole host of benefits, programs and policies. They're very wide-ranging. The work that's been done by this office since its inception in 2007 has gone across the entire breadth, and there are still things we have not yet had a chance to look at.

I think sometimes, as time goes on, we see things differently and things change. As I said, I stand by them. We stand by all of the recommendations that are there. Would we maybe have worded them differently today than they were worded seven, eight or 10 years ago? Probably.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK

I say that because you've included a historical timeline. When I go back prior to 2015, I see a lot of green marks and a lot of things that have been implemented. Then at that pivotal point in 2015, we see there was not so much being implemented: things that have not been accepted, things that are partially accepted and things that are no longer tracked. I find that 2015 is a pivotal point in our timeline.

I want to thank you for your report and for your honesty.

Do you have an opinion on why that would have changed in 2015?

Nishika Jardine

I can't speak to what was the case in 2015, as that was certainly well before my time.

Duane, I think you were at the office longer than me.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK

I just know that there was a change in government.

Duane Schippers Deputy Veterans Ombud, Office of the Veterans Ombudsman

When something is marked, it doesn't mean it was completed in those years. There were massive changes to the veterans' legislation in the post-2015 period around pension for life, and there were budget implementation bills that included a number of provisions that addressed things that had been recommended leading up to that time frame. That also explains why so many of them were done. What we see is that things get grouped over time, so you'll see a bunch of changes made, and then nothing for a while, and then a bunch more changes made.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marie-France Lalonde

I want to respect the time of everyone, so I have to interrupt you. I apologize for that sincerely.

Madame Auguste, go ahead.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Tatiana Auguste Liberal Terrebonne, QC

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

First, I'd like to thank Colonel Jardine for being here and for her service, as well as Mr. Schippers for being here.

Colonel Jardine, so that committee members can better understand your motivation and commitment, could you explain how your military career has influenced your work? You bring a wealth of personal experience that I'm sure veterans and their families recognize and appreciate. It would be very helpful for us to get to know you better from that perspective.

Nishika Jardine

Thank you for the question. I will speak in English. My French is very rusty. Usually I like to say I need a glass of red wine to make it work better, but maybe not today.

First of all, I believe that the person in this position must be a veteran. In order to be credible in the veterans community, the person who occupies this job must be a veteran. What I bring to the table is that I have served in all three environments: with the air force, with the navy and with the army, although not in a combat unit, because when I joined the army, women did not serve in combat roles, so I missed that opportunity.

As an officer, I've led soldiers at all ranks, and I was privileged to have been given command of a unit, which is the pinnacle of service in the military, so I bring that understanding of command as well.

Also, as a senior officer I worked at National Defence headquarters in capital procurement and was involved in buying military trucks, and I served overseas in Afghanistan for almost a year. I've been out for so many years and it's been over 15 years since I deployed, but I had to leave my young son at home for a year while I deployed. I bring that level of experience.

I also went to military college in the third class that accepted women, so I have that experience of having served as a woman when women were not necessarily welcomed with open arms, shall we say.

Tatiana Auguste Liberal Terrebonne, QC

I'd like to thank you once again for your service to our country, especially as we're celebrating Gender Equality Week.

You mentioned earlier that you deliberately tried to meet with veterans and their families where they are. I believe you travelled across the country to do so. Can you explain why you see that as an important task in your role? What insights or impressions did you get from that approach? What specific advice do you have for us?

Nishika Jardine

Thank you for your questions.

When I was serving—and I served up until 2019—I had no idea that there was an Office of the Veterans Ombudsman. I knew about the DND/CAF ombudsman, but I had no clue that there was a veterans ombudsman as well. I figured that if I didn't know, I was certain that there were many people in service and in the veteran community as well who did not know about our office.

I thought it would be important to go out and do this outreach program. We focused on the military bases so that we could speak to commanders and share with them what they need to do to help their soldiers when they leave the military, and how, if soldiers are going to put in a claim with Veterans Affairs, what they need to ensure is on their service health record. Military people do not, as a normal matter of course, go to the doctor when they're not well or they have an injury. If that evidence is missing from their service health record, it's much harder to get a disability claim approved.

That connection to service is so critical. We went to commanders and we spoke about this.

We visited transition centres and military family resource centres to hear from them first-hand about how they are helping members make that transition from military life to civilian life and, most importantly—or equally importantly—how their families are also being supported in that transition.

We did our town halls in the evenings in several places in and around the bases. Most people in the military retire near a base where they last served. I have as well. That's how we thought that we would design our outreach program, and you're absolutely right: We have heard a great deal.

Tatiana Auguste Liberal Terrebonne, QC

Have you had a chance to meet with Jill McKnight, Minister of Veterans Affairs? If so, what was the purpose and outcome of that meeting?

Nishika Jardine

Yes, I have met with Minister McKnight. It was an introduction meeting. I shared with her some of the things I have been hearing in our town halls and in outreach.

The Chair Liberal Marie-France Lalonde

Thank you.

Ms. Gaudreau, you have the floor.

Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Colonel Jardine and Mr. Schippers, thank you for being here and good afternoon.

I'd also like to say good afternoon to all the veterans who are watching. It's important for them to know that the office of the veterans ombud exists.

Colonel Jardine, I have a few questions that I find surprising, given the engagement of veterans, many of whom have come to my office to tell me that they feel abandoned. They may not be valued in a way that lives up to their service.

In your brief, you said that individual complaints have increased by 35% since 2020. Is that correct?

Nishika Jardine

Yes, that's correct.