House of Commons Hansard #36 of the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was victims.

Topics

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This summary is computer-generated. Usually it’s accurate, but every now and then it’ll contain inaccuracies or total fabrications.

Statements by Members

Question Period

The Conservatives condemn the Liberal government's economic policies, citing 86,000 job losses and Canada's fastest-shrinking G7 economy. They accuse the Prime Minister of offering a $1-trillion investment to the U.S. without ending auto tariffs or softwood lumber tariffs, thus betraying Canadian workers and driving deficits and inflation.
The Liberals emphasize strengthening US-Canada trade relations, highlighting the best deal in the world for sectors like auto, steel, and aluminum. They plan a discipline budget on November 4th, promising generational investments to make Canada the strongest economy in the G7 and cutting taxes. They also defend the Charter of Rights and address hate crimes.
The Bloc criticizes the Prime Minister's empty-handed U.S. trip, calling it a failure on trade. They demand withdrawal of the Bill 21 legal challenge and condemn the Justice Minister's offensive analogy on the notwithstanding clause.
The Green Party focuses on Canadian sovereignty in the Northwest Passage, urging recognition of Inuit ownership to protect it.

Ukrainian Heritage Month Act First reading of Bill S-210. The bill declares September as Ukrainian Heritage Month across Canada annually, recognizing the contributions of Ukrainian Canadians and the importance of preserving their heritage, especially given Russia's actions in Ukraine. 200 words.

Petitions

Military Justice Modernization Act Second reading of Bill C-11. The bill C-11] modernizes the military justice system by [transferring jurisdiction for sexual offences committed in Canada from military to civilian courts. Members support the principle but debate its effectiveness. Concerns include 10 years of government inaction, potential political interference, civilian court capacity, and different treatment for overseas cases. Parties seek further study on cultural change, victim support, and implementation details. 22300 words, 3 hours.

Adjournment Debates

Online harms legislation Andrew Lawton questions the government's plans to censor online speech, referencing Bills C-11, C-18, C-36 and C-63. Madeleine Chenette defends the government's actions as protecting Canadians and supporting Canadian content, while denying any intention to censor. Lawton accuses the government of conflating online harms with child exploitation.
Canadian blood services commitment Dan Mazier asks if Canadian Blood Services is honoring its commitment that all products from Canadian blood donations stay in Canada. Maggie Chi says Canadian Blood Services operates independently and is working to increase the blood supply, accusing Conservatives of spreading misinformation. Mazier repeats the question; Chi repeats that there is no evidence to suggest that it is not working in the best interest of Canadians.
Indigenous rights and consultation Lori Idlout accuses the Liberal government of violating Indigenous rights, citing Bill C-5 and cuts to Indigenous Services Canada. Claude Guay defends the government's consultation efforts and investments in Indigenous-owned projects. Idlout dismisses these consultations as publicity stunts.
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Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Grant Jackson Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Mr. Speaker, it is a privilege to rise in this chamber to put some words on the record about Bill C-11. This piece of legislation is of national importance. It is well overdue given the time that has elapsed since the recommendations came forward in the initial report, which I believe was commissioned by a Conservative government, on the heinous acts and actions within our Canadian Armed Forces. It is past time that we address these issues in a serious way.

The bill would impact my constituency of Brandon—Souris quite closely. I very proudly represent the hard-working Canadian Armed Forces personnel stationed at Canadian Forces Base Shilo, which includes the Second Battalion Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, the 1RCHA and the many other serving and civilian personnel who operate that base, which has a huge impact. There are over 1,100 employees in total, which is significant in western Manitoba. I am really proud to represent those folks, first as their member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba and now here in the House of Commons.

From a constituency service perspective, issues around sexual transgressions and sexual assaults within the military come to my constituency office far too frequently, as do the impacts of the lack of services that should be available to many who experience such devastating actions from their colleagues, their spouses or anyone else who chooses to perpetrate such deplorable actions. These are certainly not issues that I am a stranger to, sadly. That is a very unfortunate reality, but it is the reality, so I felt it was important to get up and put a few words on the record in support of the fact that we need to do better by the people who put their lives on the line for this great country under our proud Canadian flag.

It is very important to note that Conservatives have always said that members of the Canadian Armed Forces deserve a safe and respectful workplace and that those who have not experienced that while wearing the uniform deserve justice. We have heard lots of Conservatives raise personal examples, some very personal, of where that has not taken place recently or over the course of many years and, sadly, many decades. It is time to deliver a system that works better for victims and does not protect the bad actors in our system. We have so many systems now in this country that are focused on protecting the wrong people, and victims are left behind. This is just one example, but it is an important one that needs to be addressed.

While we certainly support the recommendations and support addressing the system to ensure that there is justice for folks who have experienced this type of trauma within the Canadian Armed Forces, we believe that Bill C-11 requires careful study at committee. That is why we are putting words on the record now in debate. The government, which has taken so much time to deliver a bill on this issue, continues to question why the Conservatives are speaking to it. It is because we have important questions that the Liberals need time to answer. We know they are not the most expeditious when it comes to investigating concerns that are raised by Canadians, particularly by the official opposition, and when it comes to the legislation they put forward.

We are putting them on the record now so that when the bill gets to committee, we sincerely hope, the Liberals may have some answers. I just previously raised a question for a Liberal member who, to her credit, admitted she had no idea what the answer was. I asked why the bill would treat crimes differently on Canadian soil than when our armed forces personnel are deployed. I credit the member for her honesty, but members who are speaking to the bill from the governing party, which put forward the legislation, should likely know the answers to questions before they get up to deliver remarks in the House of Commons.

That said, a couple of the concerns we have are about the civilian courts and their capacity to handle the cases. We understand that they may be, and in fact likely are, more experienced in dealing with these types of cases, but the courts are already backlogged. Time and time again, cases of serious violent offences, whether they be sexual in nature or cases of violent behaviour, run up against the Jordan framework, where the perpetrators are getting off on their charges because the courts cannot get through the process fast enough to have cases heard and verdicts delivered.

If we would now be adding more cases into the civilian court system, what provisions would the Liberals be putting in place to ensure that the court system could handle the additional workload coming its way? The Liberal government has been silent on that front, which is a concern, because if the Liberals are promising that the cases would be heard in a more effective manner, they need to put the resources behind the bill and streamline the processes to ensure that the cases would not get thrown out because of the Jordan framework.

Why would the legislation cover only domestic cases? I raise that again because it is an important point. The military police would be dealing with fewer cases overall, so that speaks to a potential lack of training or a lack of experience in dealing with cases as time goes on, yet they would still be called upon to do cases overseas. What standards and what training and expertise requirements would the Liberals be putting in place to ensure that the military police keep their standards up and in fact improve them while investigating cases overseas?

This can be challenging at the best of times when there are different jurisdictions and in many cases different nations and citizenships that are involved when such cases take place on multilateral operations, such as the ongoing deployment in Latvia. Soldiers from CFB Shilo in my constituency just completed a six-month stint in Latvia. Where does that leave the military police and their capacity?

Current crime stats are on the rise domestically under the Liberal government; we know that is a fact. We do not anticipate demand going down; in fact it would likely increase for civilian courts if they would be handling military penalties and cases. It could also mean that the Liberals' soft-on-crime policies under Bill C-5 and Bill C-75, where people who commit violent sexual offences are allowed to serve out their sentence on house arrest, may be allowed to do for military cases as well should they all move to the civilian system.

On a very small base, like the one in my constituency, there could be people living just down the street from their perpetrator on house arrest while their case goes through the court system and after conviction. We find that completely unacceptable in terms of the scope and impact it would have on the victims, who should be our priority. The Liberals have failed on the domestic civilian front, and we are very concerned they will fail again, as they have been failing, the victims within our Canadian Armed Forces.

I think we have raised some significant concerns that the Liberals have failed to provide any reasonable answer for, and that is why it is important that we thoroughly debate the bill, both here at second reading and at committee.

I want to be very clear that we want equal treatment for victims in the Canadian Armed Forces. We need to ensure that there is commonality across the board, and we want to make sure that victims are treated with the respect, the dignity and the justice they deserve.

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his speech and for his service in the Canadian Armed Forces. I am very grateful to him. I am also very pleased to know that he and his colleagues are going to support this bill. He asked a very sincere question.

I have a question for him too. Does he believe that the current military court system serves the interests of Canadian Armed Forces members who are victims of sexual misconduct, or does he believe that using civilian courts instead is a better option for those individuals?

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Grant Jackson Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Mr. Speaker, I think Conservatives have been pretty clear that we believe the military system as it currently exists has failed victims within the Canadian Armed Forces who have experienced sexual trauma. However, we are concerned about the capacity of the civilian courts to handle additional work, when they are not getting through all the work they currently have before them. Many perpetrators of violent crimes, including sexual assaults, are getting off based on the Jordan framework.

While the current system is failing members of the Canadian Armed Forces, we do not want their hopes for better service to be dashed when military cases move into the civilian court system, because the civilian courts are currently not serving victims as well as they need to be either.

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Bloc

Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC

Mr. Speaker, what does my colleague think about General Vance's statement that he had nothing to fear because he controlled the judicial process?

How did we get to this point, where a person in authority believes he is above the rules, above the law, and safe from punishment because judgments involving military personnel are under the control of the military high command itself?

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Grant Jackson Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Mr. Speaker, of course the situation my colleague raises is a terrible one to be in. I cannot imagine the feeling of being trapped in a system someone feels is protecting, or is protecting, their assaulter, the person who committed one of these crimes against them. It is a terrible situation that members of our Canadian Armed Forces who are the victims of these types of crimes have been subjected to. We need to do better by them.

Conservatives are certainly going to work hard. I know that my colleagues on the national defence committee are going to work very hard to ensure that if the bill proceeds, it does so in the most effective way possible to make sure that victims are protected and that they receive justice under the law.

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Swift Current—Grasslands—Kindersley, SK

Mr. Speaker, certainly we agree that moving the trials to the civilian courts would provide victims with, hopefully, a little more certainty that the proceedings could go ahead. However, there is a concern, because I do not see anywhere in the bill the Liberals' trying to address the lack of judges and the lack of courtroom space. I would hate for somebody to run up against a situation where they are not able to get to the end of a sentencing or a trial within a given time frame, and the charges are tossed because they were not able to get through the proceedings in a timely manner.

I am just wondering whether the member has any concerns about that.

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Grant Jackson Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Mr. Speaker, the member is exactly right; we are concerned about a lack of judges, a lack of Crown prosecutors across the country right now, and certainly in provinces. Time after time, cases are being pleaded down or in many cases completely thrown out because they hit the Jordan framework.

If the federal government is serious about ensuring that victims within our Canadian Armed Forces receive the that justice they deserve and that this country should be providing to them, they need to be stepping up with resources to scrap their soft-on-crime Bill C-5 and Bill C-75 laws and putting additional resources into our courtrooms to ensure that the cases are heard in a timely fashion so we actually deliver justice for victims in this country.

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey Newton, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to speak in strong support of Bill C-11.

Those who serve our country deserve a Canadian Armed Forces that is safe, respectful and free from harassment, discrimination and misconduct. When harm does occur, they deserve a justice system that is clear and fair and that puts victims and survivors first.

For far too long, members of the Canadian Armed Forces, especially women and other under-represented groups, have faced incidents of sexual misconduct and harassment that have shaken confidence in the military justice system. Survivors have told us again and again that the system was not working for them. This is unacceptable.

Bill C-11 builds on the brave testimony of survivors and on the tireless work of two former Supreme Court justices, Justice Arbour and Justice Fish, who both studied the issues closely. The bill responds directly to Justice Arbour’s recommendation 5 and to several of Justice Fish’s recommendations to strengthen the military justice system.

The legislation would remove jurisdiction from the armed forces to investigate and prosecute Criminal Code sexual offences committed in Canada. Those cases would now fall under the civilian justice system. This is a major change. Until now, there was what is called concurrent jurisdiction, meaning that both the military and civilian systems could handle such cases. In practice, that created confusion and inconsistency, and too often, victims were left uncertain where to turn.

By making civilian authorities the exclusive jurisdiction for the offences, we would be providing clarity, transparency and fairness. Just as with cases of murder or manslaughter, alleged sexual offences by armed forces members in Canada would be handled in civilian courts. This change ensures that very serious crimes would be treated with the seriousness and independence they deserve.

Bill C-11 would also enhance support for victims. It would establish a victim liaison officer, available to victims throughout the transfer of cases regardless of jurisdiction. Victims would no longer be left to navigate two systems on their own. Instead, they would have a designated officer to help them understand the process and have their voice heard.

The legislation would also strengthen independence within the military justice system. Key positions such as the director of military prosecutions and the director of defence counsel services would be elevated to Governor in Council appointments. This step would remove real or perceived influence from the chain of command, giving members greater trust in the fairness of the system.

Bill C-11 would also address historical discrimination faced by under-represented groups in how cases have been processed and transferred. The bill would ensure that the military justice system remains aligned with the Criminal Code and the civilian justice system, creating greater fairness for all.

We know this is not happening in isolation. Since 2021, when Justice Arbour issued her interim recommendation, the director of military prosecutions has already ensured that 100% of Criminal Code sexual offence charges are being laid in the civilian justice system. The bill would take the next step by putting the practice into law.

Some people may ask why the legislation focuses only on offences committed in Canada. The answer is that this reflects the reality of jurisdiction. For offences occurring abroad, military police would still have to—

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker Tom Kmiec

There is a point of order from the hon. member for Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman.

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Mr. Speaker, the member mentioned, just a couple of minutes ago in his speech, that Bill C-11 would provide officers to victims.

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

An hon. member

That is debate.

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Mr. Speaker, this is not debate; this is fact. It is not in Bill C-11. Bill C-11 does not provide that support.

The Canadian Armed Forces is doing that through the Department of National Defence through the sexual misconduct support and resource centre—

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker Tom Kmiec

Is there a regular practice of the House, tradition or custom that the member could refer me to on this point of order?

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

The standing orders say that members cannot be informing the House of what is not in the bill. They are making stuff up, so—

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker Tom Kmiec

Order. This is not germane to the debate. I was listening to the member for Surrey Newton in debate, and I believe it was germane.

The hon. member for Surrey Newton.

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey Newton, BC

Mr. Speaker, I want to emphasize that this bill is not only about legal frameworks but also about cultural change. Our government is committed to building a Canadian Armed Forces that is inclusive, respectful and professional. That is why we are implementing all 48 of Justice Arbour’s recommendations, of which about 20 are already completed, and the rest will be done by the end of 2025. The last recommendation is this bill. If this bill goes through, that will be the last recommendation by Justice Arbour completed. We are also acting on Justice Fish’s recommendations, prioritizing the ones that most improve independence, transparency and fairness. Bill C-11 reflects that commitment.

I know some will raise concerns about delays in the civilian system or the capacity of civilian police to handle these cases, but let us be clear that these cases are already being investigated and prosecuted by civilian authorities. Our police and courts are the right place for them. Others may point out that the military system could have moved faster to adopt these changes. I agree that change has not come quickly enough, but today, with this bill, we are locking in reforms that could not be rolled back because they would be enshrined in law.

Members of the armed forces make sacrifices every day to protect Canada and Canadians. They put service before self. They stand ready to defend us in times of danger. Our responsibility as parliamentarians is to ensure that they serve in an institution that protects them as much as they protect us. This bill is about fairness, about restoring trust and, most importantly, about sending a message to every member of the Canadian Armed Forces, especially every survivor of misconduct. We hear them. We believe them. We are acting to make the system better.

Legislation alone will not erase misconduct or rebuild trust. That work requires leadership, training, accountability and a deep cultural shift inside the forces, but laws do matter. They set the framework for justice. They signal what our society values, and they provide the tools for change. Bill C-11 is not the end of the journey, but it is a critical milestone. It states clearly that sexual offences do not belong in the military justice system. Victims deserve support, independence and fairness, and the Canadian Armed Forces deserve a justice system worthy of those who serve.

I urge all members of the House, regardless of party, to support this important legislation. Let us get it done.

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Mr. Speaker, I first want to point out that the member erred in his speech. Conservatives supported the Deschamps report, and that was 10 years ago. It took 10 years since the Deschamps report, and the Jonathan Vance scandal, for the Liberals to finally bring this forward.

He also erred in saying that the sexual misconduct support and resource centre was opening up a section to help victims navigate the legal system in civilian courts because of Bill C-11. No, it was already doing that before Bill C-11 was brought forward. That again is something that was brought forward in the Deschamps report, as well as the Arbour report.

Lastly, I would like to point out that this bill would give direction to the Minister of National Defence because of the cover-up by the Liberals with Harjit Sajjan, which the member for Waterloo helped cover up when she was House leader. She always defended Harjit Sajjan for refusing to investigate Jonathan Vance.

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey Newton, BC

Mr. Speaker, some of the past incidents that have happened are awful and unacceptable. This is why we brought this bill forward. The members on the other side must be aware that this bill was brought forward in the previous Parliament as well, and because of the filibuster the Conservatives did, we could not get it passed. I ask the Conservative member to support this bill, so we can have it in committee and serve those people who deserve justice.

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker Tom Kmiec

Order.

I hear lots of members suggesting things that the member for Surrey Newton could say or what others could say. I will recognize members if they are in their seats and want to be recognized.

The hon. member for Repentigny.

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC

Mr. Speaker, the former prime minister's entourage clearly knew that Mr. Vance was facing allegations. There was talk about serious suspicions of sexual misconduct cases. This matter is extremely serious and outrageous. I have young daughters and I feel disgusted.

The bill introduced in the previous Parliament was the same as this one and it failed to pass. Does the government truly intend to pass this bill quickly, as the gravity of the situation demands?

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey Newton, BC

Mr. Speaker, we need to have a cultural change. I am reading the new defence policy, and on page 17, it clearly mentions all we have to do. This is the work that was complemented by the introduction of Bill C-66. That work can only be completed if we get this bill through. The sooner we get that done, the sooner we will be able to achieve what we all want to achieve, which is justice for the members who protect Canada and Canadians.

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Bardish Chagger Liberal Waterloo, ON

Mr. Speaker, the member made some really interesting comments, especially when it comes to the recommendations of Justice Arbour and the fact that this Parliament could achieve advancing all 48 of them.

I find that interesting because we come here to work and to represent our constituents. The constituents of the riding of Waterloo expect me to show up to work, and it seems that the Conservatives are almost irked that the government could accomplish satisfying those recommendations.

I would like to hear from the member what his thoughts are when it comes to the men and women in uniform, the fact that this should be a non-partisan issue and the ability to call the question and get this to committee, so that the committee can spend the time it needs to do the scrutiny to ensure that we do get it right. I agree that we need to get it right.

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey Newton, BC

Mr. Speaker, out of those recommendations from Justice Arbour's report, more than 20 have been implemented. Every recommendation will be implemented by the end of 2025, including this bill, which is the last one.

As the hon. member said, let us get this bill passed and get it to committee so that we can focus on the other bills that Conservatives want to talk about.