Evidence of meeting #49 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
On a point of clarification, you said that Chief Darcy Bear had submitted suggestions and amendments. Did you consult with any other group or non-first nations individual organization?
Director General, Governance Branch, Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Chief Darcy Bear brought a couple of advisers to the table.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Other than Chief Darcy Bear and the Whitecap Dakota, did you consult with any other organization or individual group other than the Whitecap Dakota group?
Director General, Governance Branch, Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Chief Darcy Bear was the only one who came forward with specific suggested wording changes to the legislation.
NDP
Director General, Governance Branch, Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
As you know, Bill C-27 started as a private member's bill, Bill C-575 under Madam Kelly Block. In the Speech From the Throne, the government indicated its intention to bring it forward as a government bill. There was no additional external consultation that took place prior to the introduction of Bill C-27.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you, Ms. Crowder.
Seeing no additional questioners on the list, it has been agreed that we'll move into clause-by-clause study, so I'll suspend for a few moments so we can reorchestrate the table. Then we'll move back into clause-by-clause consideration.
We ask our witnesses to remain at the table or to stay available after we come back to order, but we will suspend for three minutes.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Colleagues, I call this meeting back to order. We are now going to move into clause-by-clause study of Bill C-27.
Colleagues, before we get started, we have some housekeeping. Any deck distributed before today's meeting should be taken off the table and discarded, because we don't want people using other materials as reference in the numbering of the amendments. I say that as a point of clarification because I know other decks were distributed earlier.
There was a circulation of an amended amendment. I think you will have received it. It's in regard to amendment G-1. There was a technical glitch in the printing of the original one in the deck, and therefore the corrected one has been included there. To clarify, the G-1 that's part of the deck can be removed and replaced with the one just distributed. I'm hoping that I'm not muddying the waters more than I need to before we get started, because it's going to get muddy as we go.
Colleagues, we now move into the clause-by-clause portion.
Pursuant to Standing Order 75(1), we postpone clause 1 as the final clause to be considered because it is the short title. What we do with the bill in the ensuing hours will determine whether it's the correct short title. We then move to clause 2.
(On clause 2—Definitions)
I believe the government had an amendment, amendment G-1, that was recirculated independent of the deck. It’s the two pieces of paper that were distributed separately from the deck.
Mr. Rickford, go ahead.
Conservative
Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'm seeking the support of all my colleagues on this particular amendment.
Chief Darcy Bear of the Whitecap Dakota raised concerns that the current wording of the bill, specifically in this clause, could be interpreted to mean that a first nation’s audited consolidated financial statements as well as the individual audited financial statements of each entity that the first nation controls would all need to be made public.
This, of course, is not the intention of the bill; instead, it's to maintain the current practice of presenting the financial information of entities consolidated in the first nations' financial statements according to generally accepted accounting principles and at an aggregated level.
Colleagues, this is in keeping with the rules and definitions of the Public Sector Accounting Board and the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants in how first nations presently prepare and submit their audited consolidated financial statements to the department. This bill would not undermine the competitiveness of band-owned businesses and would put in place the same rules that apply to businesses owned by other governments in Canada.
With the changes in the definition of “consolidated financial statements”, the definition of “Control — entity” is no longer needed, as the entities that must be included would be more clearly reflected in the new definition of consolidated financial statements.
Chief Darcy Bear has also brought some concerns to our attention with the definition of “remuneration”, which includes the concepts of both salary and expenses. This could give the impression that both should be reported as one figure instead of being reported separately. Combining the two categories into one figure would not give first nation members and the public a proper understanding of the actual remuneration that first nation elected leaders are receiving or the expenses for which they are being reimbursed. Many leaders have high expenses associated with the cost of travel, for example, as a result of the remote locations of their communities. Including these amounts into a general figure for remuneration could be misleading and would not create an accurate financial picture.
Finally, Mr. Chair, this government amendment to subclause 2(1) will serve to clarify the requirements of the bill and ensure that first nations members have the information necessary to properly assess the remuneration and expenses of their elected officials.
Thank you.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you, Mr. Rickford.
Colleagues, for your consideration, this is an amendment to line 1, which, if passed, would then have an impact on amendments NDP-1, LIB-1, LIB-2, LIB-4, and NDP-4, because we cannot amend a line that has already been amended. By amending line 1, all of the other ones would be deemed non-moveable.
I just wanted you to be aware of that.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
They are NDP-1, LIB-1, LIB-2, LIB-4, and NDP-4.
Did that provide any clarity? The process is that we can't amend the same line twice; if there are conflicts, we wouldn't see them surface.
Ms. Crowder, were you seeking to...?
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
I'm just going to say we won't support it because of the inclusion of the entities. We will not support it because of the inclusion of the first nations entities, other than the chief's and council's salaries.
Conservative
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
That's our feeling as well. That's what we were trying to clarify in our amendments.
Conservative
Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON
Just for greater certainty and understanding, Mr. Chair, is it that by moving this clause as we have it submitted or tabled here, those five others...?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
If this passes, those would then not be moved.
Seeing no additional speakers to the amendment, we'll now move to a vote.
(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
Then we will strike NDP-1, LIB-1, LIB-2, LIB-4, and NDP-4.
NDP-2 is the next amendment we would consider, if somebody were to move it.
Go ahead, Ms. Crowder.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
I so move.
This again comes back to my comment around an entity meaning
a corporation or a partnership, a joint venture or any other unincorporated association or organization.
In testimony from witnesses we have heard grave concerns about including this information in publicly released statements, so I would like to suggest that we delete those lines.
Conservative
Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
With respect, the consolidated financial statements of a first nation include financial information relating to the first nation and, according to generally accepted accounting principles, certain entities that the first nation controls or has an interest in. It is therefore necessary in order to ensure clarity around what constitutes an entity for the purposes of this act, and so we'll be voting against that motion.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Seeing no other people seeking to intervene, we will now take a vote on NDP-2.
(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])
The next motion would be LIB-3, if Ms. Bennett were to choose to move that.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
I'm unclear why it wasn't incorporated in the one that we opposed and you passed.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
I'll have an answer for you momentarily.
You are correct, and because of the altered version that was circulated—it was a late addition—you're absolutely correct that it is non-votable.
We'll move now to amendment NDP-3.
There is a difficulty with this, but I'll wait until it's moved before I highlight it.