Justice Committee on Sept. 25th, 2025

[Clayton Campbell]

I can speak about Toronto. We do lots of multi-jurisdictional things with the RCMP and with our other partners. The more opportunity to do that....

When you do investigations, they take a lot of resources, they take a lot of people power, they take a long time and they're expensive. In Toronto, if we're getting a gun unit or organized crime unit that works with other provincial and federal partners, if those resources are available, we can do more projects and take down more people who are out there committing crime.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I understand, but you're telling me that there are currently tools in place that can be used. What are they?

[Tom Stamatakis]

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that a registry wouldn't be useful. I was talking more about how we would build that registry and what tools we would use to populate it. There have been very effective examples of responding to, for example, outlaw motorcycle gangs by creating prohibitions against the wearing of certain symbols. Those are the kinds of tools that are very effective when it comes to dealing with organized crime groups.

Those can be expanded upon. We've had great success in—

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Are you talking about a ban on wearing emblems?

[Tom Stamatakis]

Yes. It's banning patches and other types of things.

We've also had great success in using civil forfeiture rules, for example, when dealing with outlaw motorcycle gangs and seizing clubhouses and other ill-gotten proceeds of crime, such as houses, cars and motorcycles. There are tools available. We just need to use them better and more effectively.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I would have liked to talk to you about the situation in Quebec, but I see that my time is up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

We will go over to Mr. Brock for five minutes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Again, I want to thank all three of you for your attendance today.

I just want to clarify something. This is our bail study. The Conservative Party advanced this bail study as priority number one at this justice committee. It was the Conservative Party who invited all three of you to attend, so we're very grateful for your attendance.

This is a question for you, Mr. Campbell. It's amazing what you can find on social media. I was scrolling social media during the last half hour or so. Yesterday, in downtown Toronto on a busy street, captured by video surveillance, a gentleman—I'll use that term very loosely—was standing on a sidewalk assembling what appears to be an AK-47. It was in broad daylight and in heavy traffic.

Do you think that type of person, or the gangbangers or thugs terrorizing our communities from coast to coast, would be—

[Wade Chang, Liberal, Burnaby Central, BC]

On a point of order, it's a joint study.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

I think you said, Mr. Brock, that it was a Conservative study. It is, in fairness, a joint study, and—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON]

It's a joint study, but the bail issue was a Conservative motion, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Thank you for the clarification.

In fairness, there were witnesses brought forward who weren't solely from the Conservative list, I believe, if the clerk is correct, and I have no reason to question that.

Anyway, that is what it is. We froze your time, so please go on.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON]

Thank you.

He tried to ruin my clip, but we're going to get it back on track.

The thug I just described to you, the one on a downtown Toronto street, or the gangbanger—are they the type who would likely want to return that particular AK-47 as part of the Liberal buyback program?

[Clayton Campbell]

No, and we've said it many times. The gun buyback program will not impact the violence we're seeing in the city of Toronto. Rediverting some of those resources would.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON]

Thank you.

I was very fortunate to attend TPS about three weeks ago this Friday. I had a ride-along and saw first-hand what you're describing to this committee. I also received a number of startling statistics in terms of the number of people out on bail on charges for murder and serious gun crimes. Do you have any statistics today, or within the last few days, to share with this committee on the number of people on bail in downtown Toronto?

[Clayton Campbell]

I don't, but I can get that for you, absolutely.

I do want to mention, as it came up around youth, that we had over a dozen youth charged with murder this year in the city and 102 illegal firearms seized from youth in the city. I think that's an important stat.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON]

You have youth as young as 12 years of age on bail right now for first-degree murder. Is that correct?

[Clayton Campbell]

We do. It is completely common to see someone out on bail for either a previous shooting or a firearm charge. It happens all the time.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON]

Thank you.

Chair, I'll cede the rest of my time to Mr. Shipley.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

You have a little over two minutes.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you, Chair, for giving me that time.

I think we'd be remiss if we didn't have a bit of a conversation today here about the actual frontline officers, the men and women who serve our communities.

I'd like to mention two tragic incidents that have happened over the past couple of years. Last year there was Constable Jim Peters, a Barrie police officer, who was stabbed while on duty by a repeat violent offender on probation at the time of the stabbing. Thankfully Jim survived that attack.

In 2023, OPP Constable Greg Pierzchala, a Barrie resident, was ambushed and murdered by a violent repeat offender who was out on bail under a lifetime firearms ban.

Gentlemen, you three represent lots of officers in the presence of your association. I think we need to talk about how these types of incidents, how these repeat offenders, are affecting the wellness, mental health and morale of your officers.

[Tom Stamatakis]

I just partnered in a research project with Dr. Nick Carleton at the University of Regina. We looked at publicly available data. From 2011 to 2014 we had over 245,000 charges laid in this country for assaulting a police officer. Our police officers, our members, are being assaulted every day in this country by these offenders we're talking about.

In April of this year, in my home service in Vancouver, we had an offender try to light a police officer on fire by pouring a flammable fluid on the officer while the officer was in the process of trying to arrest this individual. That's just one example. You've alluded to others. There are many other examples of police officers getting stabbed and seriously assaulted. All of those fortunately did not become those kinds of tragedies like what happened to Constable Pierzchala.

It's happening every day. We're not paying enough attention to it, and we ought to, because we're also experiencing a massive recruiting and retention challenge in our sector right now. In part, it's because of that. Why would somebody want to come into a regime where they're exposing themselves to this kind of risk every day but then are not being supported by heads of institutions, by elected officials, in some cases by other statutory bodies in place that are tasked with investigating these incidents when they happen. It's a real challenge.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

That completes Mr. Shipley's round.

We'll finish off with Mr. Chang for the final five minutes.

[Wade Chang, Liberal, Burnaby Central, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, again. Burnaby Central is one of the most diverse communities in Canada. We have many diverse families. Victim families, police officers and community groups often bring different perspectives. In each of your views, how do we best balance the need for public safety with fairness and traditional independence?

[Clayton Campbell]

If you speak to the community members who are out there, they're sick of the violence. They're sick of what they're seeing out there, and they want to see some change. They need the focus brought back to the victims, the communities, the people who are trying to go about their daily lives without being fearful of violence, being shot, stabbed, or carjacked. That's the balance. The balance needs to swing back to the victims in the communities and not the offenders.