Evidence of meeting #4 for Justice and Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was officers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
Your mic was off. I'll ask the question again and get you to repeat that.
When your officers come across open drug use in public, what are they doing and why?
President, Toronto Police Association
A lot of the time, they're just seizing it for a distraction. They may not go down the road of actually laying a charge. If it was.... You'd see it withdrawn.
If it's a resource issue with the federal prosecutors, I don't know, but that's generally what happens in the city right now.
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
For these drug charges, just for those who are unaware, federal prosecutors with the federal Public Prosecution Service of Canada are responsible for that.
President, Toronto Police Association
Yes. If you want to go for a ride-along, you can come down to 51 Division, which is down in Regent Park. You can see open drug use every day, right in front of you, if anybody wants to come to take a look at it.
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
We've been talking about bail, but we're not even at the bail stage, because the federal prosecutors are effectively deciding to not enforce or apply the law.
President, Toronto Police Association
I wouldn't want to guess on that. I can definitely get back to you with more information.
I'm not sure if any of my friends would have more information on that.
President, National Police Federation
I can say that was the case when I started my career over 20 years ago. The simple possession—Tom says it jokingly—but yes, on the Lower Mainland, in Vancouver, we did not arrest for simple possession. That's 20 years of experience there.
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
All of you have spoken, to some degree, about officers arresting people and rearresting them days or sometimes hours later.
My understanding is that, when an officer makes an arrest, there is a legal risk, and there is a physical risk that it could go sideways. I have heard anecdotally, but I am hoping that one of you officers can shed some light on it, that there is a temptation not to expose yourself to that risk when you know that they are going to be out on bail and it will all be for nothing.
How does it affect the morale of officers when they're seeing these people they know on a first-name basis on the street, regardless of their having been arrested for a very serious offence?
President, Toronto Police Association
I can say that it has a great impact on morale. Our members in Toronto are doing their part, and they are literally risking their lives. A few years ago, we had eight police officers—I think I'm right, Tom—killed in the line of duty in Canada. They're risking their lives to make these arrests.
I am proud of them. They still go out there every day and do their job, because they care about their communities and they care about victims, but it's tough. It definitely impacts morale when you do a.... Let's say that our gang unit has a complicated investigation that takes a long time, lots of work and lots of resources—only to see those gang members back out of custody in a matter of days.
President, Canadian Police Association
We had some emerging research in Canada recently—and Quebec is leading the way—where it's more troubling than that. Not only is it demoralizing, but we're creating an environment where police officers are disengaging. They are not taking those risks; they're not being proactive and intervening when they could be, because of the futility of it. It's creating a lot of challenges in our sector from a wellness, mental health and moral injury perspective.
Liberal
Wade Chang Liberal Burnaby Central, BC
Thank you, gentlemen, for being here.
I represent the great people of Burnaby Central in B.C. I will start with Mr. Campbell.
For those who may be watching from home, they might not fully understand how the bail system works here in Canada. The federal government is responsible for the Criminal Code, and the provinces are responsible for the administration of justice, including policing, Crown prosecutors, court resources, judges, justices of the peace, jails and jail guards.
Is that correct?
Liberal
Wade Chang Liberal Burnaby Central, BC
Okay.
When we hear in the media that someone was not out on bail when they were charged again, the public is not informed if that person is released with the consent of the Crown attorney.
Do you think they should be?
Liberal
Wade Chang Liberal Burnaby Central, BC
We hear in the media that people are sometimes out on bail when they are charged again, and the public is not informed that the person was released with the consent of the Crown attorney. Do you think they should be?
President, Toronto Police Association
Do I think that the public should know what's happened with the Crown attorney, that they have released or consented...? Sure. Transparency is important, yes.
Liberal
Wade Chang Liberal Burnaby Central, BC
I will turn to Mr. Sauvé.
In your public statement, you emphasized that bail reform alone isn't enough, and you called for data-driven, evidence-based measures.
As a government, we have been committed to that approach. What additional support, like mental health services or community-based interventions, would reduce reoffending the most, while protecting our communities here?
President, National Police Federation
I think my colleague, Tom, has touched on it, and so has Clayton.
We've talked publicly in different forums about the public safety continuum. It's not just policing, jail, corrections, parole, probation, Crown attorneys or judges, but also homelessness, addictions and vocational training.
In the provincial system, there is very little of all of the vocational training or addiction treatments. Your sentence is two years less a day, because it's a provincial sentence, not federal time, so that's great. All of a sudden, you're going to be out in six or nine months on parole, but you haven't had treatment. You don't have a place to live, and nobody has trained you for a new job. What are going to do?
There's also the issue that our members see, which is that the regionalization of services in the provinces has become a challenge. For example, Whatì, Northwest Territories, is three and a half hours away from Yellowknife. If I am to appear in provincial court in the Northwest Territories, I'll be going to Yellowknife. I'm going to get picked up, and maybe I'll get remanded and sent down to Yellowknife, but perhaps I'll get released on bail. Does the system give me a bus ticket back to my home community of Whatì, or do I have to hitchhike? The same thing happens in Prince George, Fort Nelson and Fort St. John. Just from the regionalization of our systems, have we put those offenders at greater risk of reoffending?
President, Canadian Police Association
We've allowed a narrative to become entrenched in this country over the last number of years that is an either-or. If we just arrest and incarcerate, that's bad. Then we say it has to be rehabilitation only, and we have to get to the underlying systemic issues that contribute to the crime. That's led to something that somebody else asked in terms of what has changed. We need to get back to both. It has to be both. We have to be able to....
People say all the time that we can't arrest our way out of this problem. I actually say that we can. We can arrest, because then we can connect people to services. We can do other things. Arrests shouldn't just mean incarceration.
The problem is that we have focused on one or the other, either-or. What we need is both.
Liberal
Wade Chang Liberal Burnaby Central, BC
Mr. Sauvé, Bill C-48 strengthened reverse onus for intimate partner violence and firearms offences, two areas that police and victim advocates identify as priorities.
From the RCMP's perspective, how have these changes improved the safety of victims and the safety of officers on the front lines?
