Justice Committee on Oct. 9th, 2025

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Good afternoon, everyone. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 7 of the House of Common Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

Pursuant to the order of reference that you're all familiar with and the motion adopted on October 7, the committee is meeting to study Bill C-9, an act to amend the Criminal Code with respect to hate propaganda, hate crime and access to religious or cultural places.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format—with, notably, MP Idlout joining us online—pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Before we continue, as always, I would ask all in-person participants to consult the guidelines written on the cards in front of them on the table. These measures are in place to help prevent audio and feedback incidents, and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters.

You will notice a QR code on the card in front of you which links to a short awareness video.

I want to make a few comments for benefits of the witnesses and the members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. Those participating by video conference, in this case MP Idlout, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic, and please mute yourself when you're not speaking. For those on Zoom, at the bottom of your screen you can find a selection tab for the appropriate channel for the interpretation: floor, English or French. Those in the room can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

I will remind you that all comments should be directed through me, the chair.

For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function.

The committee clerk and I will do our best to maintain the order of speaking. We thank you in advance for your patience and understanding in this regard.

On that last note, the committee has graciously agreed to allow a couple of questions from MP Idlout at the end. We're at 3:30. We'll go to 4:35 and then just hold the rest for the next panel of officials that I'll introduce then.

Welcome, Minister.

Welcome, guests.

Appearing today, we have with us the Minister of Justice, the Honourable Sean Fraser.

He is joined by Shalene Curtis-Micallef, deputy minister and deputy attorney general of Canada, and Owen Ripley, senior assistant deputy minister.

I will introduce the second hour's witnesses at the second hour.

I will remind you that for the presentation today, Minister, you have five minutes to present. Without further ado, I turn the floor over to you.

Welcome.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Members, it's a pleasure to be here with you today to discuss the combatting hate act, Bill C-9.

Just to set the table.... One of the things I think we need to reflect upon as Canadians is that it's a great promise of this country that we have the ability to live freely, regardless of the colour of our skin, the god we pray to or the person we love. Sadly, too many Canadians are robbed of these basic freedoms, not necessarily by operation of law but, too often, by virtue of being subjected to hate in their communities.

One of the great promises we made as a country is that we would allow the citizens of Canada to live their lives freely. Unfortunately, many people face discrimination and hate.

This is a problem in Canada that's worsened, particularly since the end of the COVID-19 pandemic, and it manifests itself in very painful and very human ways.

When you have the opportunity to talk to people who face discrimination.... Let's be specific; it's not just discrimination. There are firebombs on our synagogues. There are desecrations of our National Holocaust Monument. We have seen far too many people feel unsafe to practise their faith.

Although we've seen a troubling rise in anti-Semitism, it's not limited to any one particular faith. I have had the opportunity to speak with members of the Muslim community, the Christian community, the Hindu community and the Sikh community, who tell me the great pain they go through when they're unable to live their lives freely, be who they are and practise their faith in public.

It doesn't take long, when you start to have conversations with communities who are subjected to hate, to realize that it's not restricted to the religious context. When I talk to members of the queer community, they tell me that, of course, it's painful if they personally have been subjected to hate.

However, when we read the newspapers, we see that there is a lot of concern out there.

There are people who shared with me that they fear to even hold their loved one's hand for fear they may be subjected to violence in their communities.

It's important that we do more than offer our words, thoughts and prayers to people who have been subjected to hate, often violent acts of hate. That brings us to Bill C-9. We, of course, in the recent federal election campaign, made a commitment to add new offences to the Criminal Code, specifically to protect the ability, primarily, for people to participate in activities at their religious institutions—the buildings, churches, mosques, synagogues and mandirs.

It's important that we realize that hate is not limited to the doorsteps of our religious institutions. Though this bill includes the criminalization of intimidation and obstruction of those who would attend the buildings or structures designed for identifiable groups, we've decided to go beyond that initial commitment and introduce a stand-alone crime of hate. This is meant to recognize that hate is throughout our communities—in our parks, in our streets, on our university campuses and in our grocery stores.

As to the way this particular charge will operate, it will lay over existing criminal offences to recognize that there is an enhanced moral culpability when you commit a crime against a person on the basis of who they are. It also recognizes that it is not just the individual victim who suffers consequences when they face an act of hate. The impact reverberates throughout the entirety of a particular community, causing people to have extraordinarily difficult and traumatic experiences on the basis of the immutable characteristics with which they were born.

In addition to the intimidation and obstruction offence and this new stand-alone crime of hate, we've established an additional criminal offence—the wilful promotion of hate through the use of hate symbols. Of course, the wilful promotion of hate is an existing crime today, but this recognizes that sometimes the tool you use to commit a crime worsens the impact on the victim and, in this instance, on the entirety of a given community.

Beyond the specific measures we included among these new offences, we also heard loud and clear from law enforcement and from communities who have been subjected to hate that charges are not often laid. We know that there were just shy of 5,000 hate crimes reported in 2023, the last year for which I've seen complete data. We expect that the number is much, much larger.

We've heard very clearly that there are difficulties when it comes to understanding clarity in the definition and also with the administrative process. For that reason, we've added clarifying language to codify the definition of hate and remove the requirement for the consent of the attorney general.

I do not have much time to continue the conversation, but I do hope that you will have the opportunity to commit to studying Bill C‑9, which is very important for protecting minority communities and allowing all Canadians to live their lives freely in every community across our country.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Thank you, Minister.

We will at least have time for two nearly complete rounds of questions, and perhaps even a third.

The speaking order is as follows: Mr. Brock, who will have six minutes and, I understand, will share some of his time with Mr. Gill. Then it will be Mr. Housefather, followed by Mr. Fortin. They will have six minutes each.

Go ahead, Mr. Brock.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister Fraser and officials, welcome to the justice committee.

Minister, since your government took office in 2015, crime in this country has been spiralling out of control, with violent crime up 55%, homicide up 30%, sex assault up 76%, gun crime up 130%, and extortion, shockingly, up 330%. However, over the last 570 days, your government has introduced only two justice bills, Bill C-63 and Bill C-9, neither of which does anything to address the revolving door for violent repeat offenders.

Why, Minister, after a year and a half, is your first legislative priority a bill that restricts free speech instead of protecting Canadians from violent repeat offenders?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, with enormous respect to my colleague, I view the question as diminishing the importance of the legislation we're here to discuss today. Treating hate crimes as something less than urgent, when members of affected communities are experiencing painful realities as a result of the hate that is lobbed upon them, is not, in my view, the appropriate way to engage in this conversation.

For the member's information, as we've discussed privately, we expect that this fall.... Granted, I've been in this position for a matter of a few months, most of which the House wasn't sitting. We have tabled the legislation we're here to discuss today. This fall, within a matter of weeks, we will have one of the most comprehensive sets of reforms, when it comes to the bail system and tougher sentences, that our country has seen in many years. We will have a third bill before Christmas regarding intimate partner violence, sexual offences and the role of victims in this process.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON]

Thank you, Minister. I'm taking back my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Mr. Brock, I understand that the minister should be succinct in his answers, but let him finish his thoughts. I'll cut him off if need be.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON]

I'm taking a look at the time it took me to pose the question, sir, and I've given him an extra 10 seconds to respond.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Go ahead.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON]

Do I have my time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Go ahead.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON]

Thank you.

Minister, in 2015, there were 382,000 incidents of violent crime. In 2024, there were almost 592,000. That's a 55% increase. Any way you slice it, it's an objective fact that crime is worse now than it was in 2015.

Are you willing to accept reality, or are you going to choose to remain oblivious to what's happening in this country?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I can recognize that crime and violent crime are problems in Canada. That's why we are moving forward with an ambitious legislative agenda that's going to toughen the criminal justice system.

However, it's important that we realize there are additional solutions. In addition to our changes to the bail and sentencing regime that you'll see in a matter of weeks, you're also going to see investments on the front line, with 1,000 new RCMP officers, 1,000 new border officials and more prosecutors. We also have a view of the long-term need to prevent crime by making investments upstream that will tackle opportunities to pull at-risk youth out of the system, to invest in supportive housing and to deal with mental health and addictions.

I think it's clear that we need to take action to toughen Canada's criminal laws and punish people who commit serious crimes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON]

Minister, Conservatives have introduced nearly 20 justice and public safety bills in this Parliament alone—on bail reform, sexual assault, intimate partner violence and organized crime, among others—while your government has tabled just two.

Are you going to support any private member's bills introduced by the Conservative Party?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

We don't have a blanket rule on supporting or rejecting bills based on the source of those proposed legal changes. We instead consider, independently, each of the measures brought forward by members, regardless of which party they may come from. I've had productive conversations with you as my critic, Mr. Brock, and with our colleague Mr. Caputo. I'm willing to work in good faith.

If there are certain challenges that cause us to believe the proposed reforms will not make communities safe or would be blatantly unconstitutional, I will have challenges.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

Will you commit today to repealing the principle of restraint under section 493.1 of the Criminal Code to stop repeat violent offenders from being released back onto our streets? Yes or no?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

You should expect to see changes to the way the principle of restraint is codified in the Criminal Code. I would point out that a repeal of the principle is not necessarily the appropriate language, given that the principle of restraint is recognized in common law and upheld by the Supreme Court of Canada.

There are challenges with it, and we will be making changes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON]

I'll take that as a no. Thank you, Minister.

Last month, in response to the Conservative announcement of the “stand on guard” policy, you tweeted, “This isn't the Wild West. It's Canada.”

Around the same time you tweeted out this tone-deaf statement, in Hamilton alone, more than 80 shots rang out at bars after they were closing, leaving three injured. In Toronto, a 19-year-old was shot and killed in a mall bathroom. Two 17-year-olds were charged. In Ottawa, a Jewish woman in her 70s was stabbed and sent to hospital just for being Jewish. In Calling Lake, Alberta, a man wanted on a Canada-wide arrest warrant was charged in a violent home invasion in which the homeowner was shot and killed.

If these and thousands of other crime stories happening around this country on a weekly basis aren't indicative of the Wild West, what would meet your definition, sir?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

This is an important conversation. Canadians should know that they have the right to defend themselves in their homes under the law if they are faced with such circumstances as you've described. They have the ability to use force to do so when it is reasonably necessary.

Jurisdictions that have adopted the proposal you've suggested have not become more safe and have created new dangers. Just a few weeks ago, in Texas, a 12-year-old boy was killed by someone who thought he might have been an invader when he was playing nicky nicky nine doors. You hear stories about people mistaken for invaders while delivering packages. We're saying that where there is a set of circumstances that make this unreasonable, the police should be able to make an independent decision.

The law was put in place by Stephen Harper, and it's a law that I actually support. You have the right to defend yourself in your home.

I would remind colleagues that we have an opportunity to discuss the hate legislation we brought forward. I hope subsequent questioners will take that issue as seriously as the government does.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Thank you, Minister.

MP Housefather, the floor is yours.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I believe Ms. Dhillon wanted to go first, so I'll give her the time.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

No, that's fine. Go ahead.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Are you sure? Okay.

Thank you, Minister, for coming here.

I was a bit surprised and a bit disappointed to hear Mr. Brock categorize this legislation as something that restricts free speech and that minimizes its importance. This is legislation that comes forward after a shocking rise in anti-Semitism in Canada over the last two years that has led many in the Jewish community to feel very unsafe in the country. Last year, at my request, this committee did a study, and Mr. Brock was there at the time.

Mr. Fortin was there as well.

It was called “Heightened Antisemitism in Canada and How to Confront It”. It came forward with many recommendations, some of which are included in the bill. For example, Minister, are you aware of the study on anti-Semitism that the justice committee did last year?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Yes, I am.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Recommendation 10 states, “That the federal Parliament consider creating a new intimidation offence under the Criminal Code to more clearly and directly protect entrance to and exit from community buildings...places of worship and community centers, in addition to existing offences that may apply in situations where such buildings are being blocked.”

Minister, is that in the bill?